Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: If the situation is that there are contractual problems and no lawyers were involved, then that may explain a lot. But more likely the in-house ones were so totally inexperienced at the task that they didn't even realise they weren't up to it. I think you need to read up on how these projects work. Not like you to be so shabby. The employer (us) has to employ an impartial NEC qualifier project manager and a quantity surveyor. The NEC project manager approves all payments based upon the quantity surveyors assessment if the work done and the rates for materials and work that were tendered by the Contractor. He also assesses claims from the contractor for extra work that is necessary because it was not in the design or original bill of quantities. He has absolute discretion. Of course his opinions can be challenged and he can review them. Lawyers may be used for advice along the way but its not a big thing. It only becomes our lawyers against theirs if one sues the other. http://www.nec-adjudicators.org/files/NECadjudicators_org(ProjectManager)PowersDuties.pdf Edited July 22, 2023 by Happier diner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 24 minutes ago, Happier diner said: I think you need to read up on how these projects work. Not like you to be so shabby. The employer (us) has to employ an impartial NEC qualifier project manager and a quantity surveyor. The NEC project manager approves all payments based upon the quantity surveyors assessment if the work done and the rates for materials and work that were tendered by the Contractor. He also assesses claims from the contractor for extra work that is necessary because it was not in the design or original bill of quantities. He has absolute discretion. Of course his opinions can be challenged and he can review them. Lawyers may be used for advice along the way but its not a big thing. It only becomes our lawyers against theirs if one sues the other. http://www.nec-adjudicators.org/files/NECadjudicators_org(ProjectManager)PowersDuties.pdf Presumably the project manager can only approve payments for work in line with the terms of the contract? Surely, substantial extra work would have to be the subject of a revision to the contract or another contract with another party? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADELE Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 Putting a finishing price tag on a project like this one is pretty impossible this is probably why there wasn’t any suggestion of cost given when the MEA announced the windmill dream lessons have been learned. Whatever unofficial thoughts of cost have been linked the windmills it will have increased by 100% or more whilst they are deciding where to put them. This will be the biggest stumbling block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gladys said: Presumably the project manager can only approve payments for work in line with the terms of the contract? Surely, substantial extra work would have to be the subject of a revision to the contract or another contract with another party? It's a good question. Variations to the contract are theoretically unlimited. However, yes, if the thing was so varied from the original that it bore no recognition to the original then yes. For example if the ferry terminal design was changed so much that it was a football stadium then the PM would recommend terminating the contract. However the client would be still liable for all the consequential of costs that the contractor could claim so it would not really be a palatable way out for us. These contracts are well known to favour the contractor. Edited July 22, 2023 by Happier diner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 11 minutes ago, Gladys said: Presumably the project manager can only approve payments for work in line with the terms of the contract? Surely, substantial extra work would have to be the subject of a revision to the contract or another contract with another party? It would depend entirely on the project plan, terms, who/how its been drafted. Usually they are given a bit of discretion, otherwise there is no point appointing a Project Manager if they have to go back and ask the 'client' everytime something changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, ADELE said: Putting a finishing price tag on a project like this one is pretty impossible this is probably why there wasn’t any suggestion of cost given when the MEA announced the windmill dream lessons have been learned. Whatever unofficial thoughts of cost have been linked the windmills it will have increased by 100% or more whilst they are deciding where to put them. This will be the biggest stumbling block. Not sure what you are saying here. If the MUA do a thorough ground investigation and get a good designer to write a good specification and there are no surprises and no changes of scope then the risk of the price exceeding the tendered price will be low. Neither the prom nor the landing stage followed this good practice. PS. Wind turbines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADELE Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 No one knew what was under the promenade, old gas pipes and whatever the Victorians left under plus what was left when the land was reclaimed it was not straightforward. Plus when you say and there are no surprises that really lets your comment down it was surprises that held up the promenade and surprises that are currently causing problems in Liverpool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ADELE said: No one knew what was under the promenade, old gas pipes and whatever the Victorians left under plus what was left when the land was reclaimed it was not straightforward. Plus when you say and there are no surprises that really lets your comment down it was surprises that held up the promenade and surprises that are currently causing problems in Liverpool. They were only surprises because they were not foreseen. They should have reasonably been forseen. The wind turbines are being fitted in the middle of nowhere. There will be no underground services. The biggest cost is the things themselves. They are normally bolted to a concrete base which is anchored into rock. I'm not saying they can't get it wrong, but if they do there will be no excuses. 😬😬 Edited July 22, 2023 by Happier diner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 36 minutes ago, The Phantom said: It would depend entirely on the project plan, terms, who/how its been drafted. Usually they are given a bit of discretion, otherwise there is no point appointing a Project Manager if they have to go back and ask the 'client' everytime something changes. Which is why I say in line with the terms of the contract. The point is that the PM surely cannot have signed off on additional expenditure making the contract price several multiples of the original, meaning that at some point the additional work was approved, but was the additional expenditure? And, why at that point, was the slide rule not run over the whole project to check it was still viable? And, also why wasn't that a point at which abandoning the project was one of the alternatives considered? I go back to my original point (of a year ago) that the contract cannot have been termed so that it was a blank cheque without the ability to terminate. Settle what was due, even a penalty, if the future costs were either not capable of being accurately estimated or were basically unlimited. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 37 minutes ago, Gladys said: The point is that the PM surely cannot have signed off on additional expenditure making the contract price several multiples of the original, meaning that at some point the additional Oh yes he can. He will do that until its completed or one party has terminated the contract. You can terminate a contract and pay the penalties that are written into it or you can walk away and be in breach of the contract. Not sure what you are saying really. Either of these would leave you with a part built landing stage and a lot less money than you had at the start. What would be your next move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc.fixit Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 I see one of their arguments is that the silting is causing continuing problems. Well who would have thought it? I re-call seeing quite a few comments on these forums right at the beginning of the project. I believe a number of folk clearly said that the corner of the river there was prone to silting and therefore was a stupid place to site a landing stage. How odd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted July 22, 2023 Author Share Posted July 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Happier diner said: Oh yes he can. He will do that until its completed or one party has terminated the contract. You can terminate a contract and pay the penalties that are written into it or you can walk away and be in breach of the contract. Not sure what you are saying really. Either of these would leave you with a part built landing stage and a lot less money than you had at the start. What would be your next move? Blow up what's been built to deny the enemy any use. Scorched earth. 😂 A bit like taxpayer's bank accounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTail Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 Have we been told what the problems are? Usually money is lost in the groundworks (waterworks) but I am fairly sure that part is now finished. If so then just stop the project. Buy a £500 B&Q shed or two that will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 3 hours ago, Happier diner said: Not sure what you are saying really. Either of these would leave you with a part built landing stage and a lot less money than you had at the start. Seems the same as we have now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 4 hours ago, ADELE said: No one knew what was under the promenade, old gas pipes and whatever the Victorians left under plus what was left when the land was reclaimed it was not straightforward. Plus when you say and there are no surprises that really lets your comment down it was surprises that held up the promenade and surprises that are currently causing problems in Liverpool. It would have been straightforward if they'd bothered to do a thorough check of various records and hadn't started digging at random spots along the Prom. The records were there, they just didn't bother checking. Surprising really that a 100+ year old Victorian gas main wasn't on the database for 'dial before you dig' but Corpy records and some MNH material both showed it. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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