Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Passing Time]

13 hours ago, Happier diner said:

You cant tale people's pensions even if they are fired. 

Correct but you can withhold the golden parachute 

[Passing Time]

21 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Yes. They are already sacked. 

Really…

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, Passing Time said:

Correct but you can withhold the golden parachute 

The pension is the golden parachute in the main. On top you would maybe sign a compromise agreement which might be say 6 months paid notice.  Yes it stinks.

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, Passing Time said:

Really…

Who else would you sack?

[asitis]

5 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Who else would you sack?

Generally, or just in relation to this topic ? If generally the mods wouldn't like the length of the replies !

[Happier diner]

22 minutes ago, asitis said:

Generally, or just in relation to this topic ? If generally the mods wouldn't like the length of the replies !

Generally. I am genuinely interested.

There maybe some at the DOI who have performed poorly. They are probably not up to doing a job like that. They may not even be good enough to do their own roles. I understand that sentiment.

However if a leader gives a job to someone who does not have the capability to do something and it fails then the accountability is with the leader for making that decision if the project goes badly. If that makes sense. 

[Dirty Buggane]

Well should not the person whom has been given the job hold there hand up and say this is out of my league and my pay grade instead of trying and failing spectacularly. But hey ho its not my money and if I fuck up nothing will happen in fact most likely get a promotion and a raise. Result

[GD4ELI]

12 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Well should not the person whom has been given the job hold there hand up and say this is out of my league and my pay grade instead of trying and failing spectacularly. But hey ho its not my money and if I fuck up nothing will happen in fact most likely get a promotion and a raise. Result

Because they don't realise this to be the case. Hence project reviews, peer reviews etc.

[Dirty Buggane]

But I am more concerned about no consequences for anyone involved. Nothing like getting tossed out on your ass no pension to make sure what you are doing is up to scratch. Instead of how's it going George/Steve/William, not sure really but not to worry how's the golf going these days. 

[Happier diner]

3 hours ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Well should not the person whom has been given the job hold there hand up and say this is out of my league and my pay grade instead of trying and failing spectacularly. But hey ho its not my money and if I fuck up nothing will happen in fact most likely get a promotion and a raise. Result

Its a fair point. However how would they even know they didn't have the capabilities.

Its a moot point really though isn't it as this is not the main cause of the issues with the project.

Those being

• Unrealistic budget
• Unrealistic timescale
• Poor planning
• Poor investigation
• Changes of scope
• COVID
• Inflation

The first 5 are at the door of our government and the engineering consultant that was selected

I am not trying to stick up the DOI. But we have to remember they are just the project sponsor. The project sponsor is basically the person who is employed by the client to interface between the client and the Consultants (Project Manager/QS/Supervisor/designer). They may have not been adept enough to limit the damage but I don't believe they are fundamental in the process. The worst they can do a make a disaster a teeny bit worse.

[Two-lane]

19 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

But we have to remember they are just the project sponsor. The project sponsor is basically the person who is employed by the client to interface between the client and the Consultants (Project Manager/QS/Supervisor/designer).

This is from elsewhere on the Interweb:

"The project sponsor is the person responsible for the overall success of the project, including appointing the project manager and team, defining success criteria, and ensuring the successful delivery of the project. "

"The project sponsor, or executive sponsor, is a person or a group of people at the senior management level. They are responsible for the success of a project and provide necessary guidance and resources to the project team and manager. Ideally, project sponsors provide high project sustainability, strategic planning, and successful implementation of the project’s objectives."

[Andy Onchan]

38 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Its a fair point. However how would they even know they didn't have the capabilities.

Its a moot point really though isn't it as this is not the main cause of the issues with the project.

Those being

• Unrealistic budget
• Unrealistic timescale
• Poor planning
• Poor investigation
• Changes of scope
• COVID
• Inflation

The first 5 are at the door of our government and the engineering consultant that was selected

I am not trying to stick up the DOI. But we have to remember they are just the project sponsor. The project sponsor is basically the person who is employed by the client to interface between the client and the Consultants (Project Manager/QS/Supervisor/designer). They may have not been adept enough to limit the damage but I don't believe they are fundamental in the process. The worst they can do a make a disaster a teeny bit worse.

Who's the client in this case?

[Happier diner]

10 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Who's the client in this case?

The DOI. That's because, I am reliably informed, the Government cannot be a client as its not a legal entity. But not my field of expertise so I am surmising that the government use departments to be the client on major capital projects (like landing stages). That's why its harsh to keep blaming the DOI for this project's failures as they are just puppets (or even muppets) in the process.

Someone like @John Wright or @Roger Mexico would be better placed to advise the forum on matters like this.

[Happier diner]

33 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

This is from elsewhere on the Interweb:

"The project sponsor is the person responsible for the overall success of the project, including appointing the project manager and team, defining success criteria, and ensuring the successful delivery of the project. "

"The project sponsor, or executive sponsor, is a person or a group of people at the senior management level. They are responsible for the success of a project and provide necessary guidance and resources to the project team and manager. Ideally, project sponsors provide high project sustainability, strategic planning, and successful implementation of the project’s objectives."

The Interweb can be misleading. On NEC projects the Project sponsor role does not exist. It is the Client and yes the Client is ultimately accountable for the success of the project. I think the quote you have posted is confusing responsibility with accountability. For the Liverpool landing stage a world leading Engineering Consultant (AECOM) was appointed. It could be argued that they have made a right mess of it. However you cant really blame the DOI if they have chosen a reputable designer.

[Non-Believer]

So what we are looking at here then is another MEA/Power Station scenario - "Nobody is to blame, it just happened".

Nobody was responsible at any stage for monitoring the runaway costs or passing accurate information up the chain so that informed decisions could be made on whether to continue or not. This left us with our elected being left to vote to continue, on more than one occasion, on the basis that we'd spent so much that we might as well see it through.