Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[A fool and his money.....]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

 

We actually only really paid market value for the fixed assets.

What we paid above that was calculated as profits anticipated over the 6 or 7 years to the end of the user agreement, discounted for advanced payment.

Yes we could have waited, and lined up new tonnage so we could have had a new shipping line to launch on day zero. That’s risky, training, crewing, delivery. Look what happened to Manxman delivery and then going into full service, what would have happened for that 10 months? 

And as the Banco Spirito Santo owned SPCo always significantly outperformed the service minima in the User Agreement they could just have reduced sailings.

What we got was a smooth transition.

Of course, if we had had a crystal ball we would have known about Covid, losses and a huge drop in value. 

Surely much of the value of the company was in the UA. What we did is wait for the company to be asset stripped and then bought it for over the odds. It's was like bailing MG out with a huge rise, a golden opportunity missed.

[John Wright]

3 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Surely much of the value of the company was in the UA. What we did is wait for the company to be asset stripped and then bought it for over the odds. It's was like bailing MG out with a huge rise, a golden opportunity missed.

You’re completely misunderstanding the deal and how the purchase price was calculated.

[A fool and his money.....]

10 minutes ago, John Wright said:

You’re completely misunderstanding the deal and how the purchase price was calculated.

I think the deal is probably better understood than you think, and certainly didn't favour the Manx public.

[Max Power]

7 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I think the deal is probably better understood than you think, and certainly didn't favour the Manx public.

You'll understand then that the money will all be paid back with interest by the SPCo? 

The deal was what it cost to get the company back in Manx ownership. There's no disadvantage or risk to the Manx public. 

[Banker]

2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

You'll understand then that the money will all be paid back with interest by the SPCo? 

The deal was what it cost to get the company back in Manx ownership. There's no disadvantage or risk to the Manx public. 

Plus the debt was refinanced via the £400m bond at a rate of c1.7% long term saving a substantial amount of interest based on current rates.

[Non-Believer]

3 minutes ago, Max Power said:

 There's no disadvantage or risk to the Manx public. 

But there is a disadvantage to the Manx public; the freight (and passenger costs) as now highlighted, which impact every facet of life and the economy here.

Paying back of these loans maybe the case but in the end, WE are all paying for it and paying for it handsomely.

As previously posted, wait for any additional costs arising from the agreement to use the new terminal to feed in, too.

[A fool and his money.....]

14 minutes ago, Max Power said:

You'll understand then that the money will all be paid back with interest by the SPCo? 

The deal was what it cost to get the company back in Manx ownership. There's no disadvantage or risk to the Manx public. 

But who will it be paid back with interest by? The people who use the SPCo, who were previously paying over the odds to bolster the profits of a foreign investor, and are now paying even more over the odds to pay off the inflated cost of purchasing the company, plus investing in the infrastructure which had been neglected by the previous owners.

[Max Power]

21 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

But there is a disadvantage to the Manx public; the freight (and passenger costs) as now highlighted, which impact every facet of life and the economy here.

Paying back of these loans maybe the case but in the end, WE are all paying for it and paying for it handsomely.

As previously posted, wait for any additional costs arising from the agreement to use the new terminal to feed in, too.

 

10 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

But who will it be paid back with interest by? The people who use the SPCo, who were previously paying over the odds to bolster the profits of a foreign investor, and are now paying even more over the odds to pay off the inflated cost of purchasing the company, plus investing in the infrastructure which had been neglected by the previous owners.

I can see your point, however we have had tremendous unforeseen political and economic upheaval just after the purchase. Costs have escalated dramatically, this would quite probably have had the effect of higher fares even if there hadn't been a takeover. 

I do think that fares are too high, and that there is a certain amount of profiteering, but it's not all down to that! 

[Two-lane]

Has the  .gov, in an arms-length kind of way, kept a tight control on large expenditures since it took control of the company?

[finlo]

1 minute ago, Two-lane said:

Has the  .gov, in an arms-length kind of way, kept a tight control on large expenditures since it took control of the company?

Its them that's driven it if anything.

[Dirty Buggane]

The government are looking on the steamie as a cash cow to keep paying cs pensions so will be another stealth tax by another name.

[Non-Believer]

19 minutes ago, Max Power said:

 

I can see your point, however we have had tremendous unforeseen political and economic upheaval just after the purchase. Costs have escalated dramatically, this would quite probably have had the effect of higher fares even if there hadn't been a takeover. 

I do think that fares are too high, and that there is a certain amount of profiteering, but it's not all down to that! 

The Steamie was bought for two reasons, firstly to stabilise the situation in regard to the Island's lifeline surface connections, that it needed doing is beyond question.

The second reason and let's not beat around the bush here, was as a cash cow for IoMG. No matter what the financing was/is, it's about revenue to pay off 25 years worth of fuck ups and that's why the prices are what they are.

However, WE have now paid for a Govt-commissioned Report which has produced a result indicating that one Govt Dept can firmly lays the blame for some of its woes at another Govt body, ie the Steamie. This could prove interesting. The farmers, a traditionally heavily-supported,  unassailable local body vs a Treasury desperate for revenue to pay itself and Govt.

Would anybody bet against the agricultural trade coming out of this with preferential rates for shipping? The problem being that if the current freight rates are damaging to one industry then they'll be damaging to all the others using freight too (as they already are) so there will be uproar if it's granted.

Edited June 29 by Non-Believer
Extra bit

[finlo]

7 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The Steamie was bought for two reasons, firstly to stabilise the situation in regard to the Island's lifeline surface connections, that it needed doing is beyond question.

The second reason and let's not beat around the bush here, was as a cash cow for IoMG. No matter what the financing was/is, it's about revenue to pay off 25 years worth of fuck ups and that's why the prices are what they are.

However, WE have now paid for a Govt-commissioned Report which has produced a result indicating that one Govt Dept can firmly lays the blame for some of its woes at another Govt body, ie the Steamie. This could prove interesting. The farmers, a traditionally heavily-supported,  unassailable local body vs a Treasury desperate for revenue to pay itself and Govt.

Would anybody bet against the agricultural trade coming out of this with preferential rates for shipping? The problem being that if the current freight rates are damaging to one industry then they'll be damaging to all the others using freight too (as they already are) so there will be uproar if it's granted.

See the firm closing thread for examples of the effect its having.

[Dirty Buggane]

Alfies last roll of the dice trying to top up finances, trouble is CS keep coming up with and selling fucking shite ideas to gormless MHKs.  Somehow trying to keep the money coming to pay for their pensions and bonuses when they leave for the promised land "Retirement". Of which they think they are fully entitled to and we  (the greater Manx public)  will just have to pay more to cover their dreams and holidays and new RVs.

Edited June 29 by Dirty Buggane

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Alfies last roll of the dice trying to top up finances, trouble is CS keep coming up with and selling fucking shite ideas to gormless MHKs.  Somehow trying to keep the money coming to pay for their pensions and bonuses when they leave for the promised land "Retirement". Of which they think they are fully entitled to and we  (the greater Manx public)  will just have to pay more to cover their dreams and holidays and new RVs.

Those shite ideas incorporate everything but reductions to the expenditure incurred by their own terms and numbers though. Strange that.

I'm not too au fait with current freight charges (such as John Quaye from MIC would be the best man to advise) but 10 - 15 years ago it was circa £70 per pallet of goods shipped to IoM so I wouldn't be surprised if it was £100+ now. That cost has to be partly or wholly absorbed by the retailer or passed on to the consumer in additional pricing of the goods on the pallet which obviously raises the cost to already hard-pressed consumers. So they reduce their purchasing and/or become more judicious thus increasing the pressure on the business. Which is all at least partly why we are losing so many.

I doubt if there are many Treasury CS who have much real world experience in the private retail or transport sector, their thinking is largely limited to, "We need more money, therefore taxes need to go up" which the plebs can't largely avoid.

MHKs are just the nodding dogs on the CS leash who are easily convinced that it needs to be this way.