Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Non-Believer]

It's gone from "no cost to the Manx taxpayer" (aside from the initial £3.5M lease), incrementally through £15M, £20M, £30M and up, all the relevant media links have been posted on this thread over nearly 5 years by various posters. As well as the denial last year, during Tim Baker's tenure, that costs had breached £50M (a claimed "typographical error"), which was now clearly a pack of lies.

As I've posted previously, an MHK has advised me that PH pulled out after issuing warnings about the site (that THEY were negotiating to lease).

I sincerely hope that PAC are given free reign on this; they should have a field day. Of course  Messr Black and Mesdame Reynolds have exited stage left now.

 

[littlebushy]

Steam packet were paying extra to secure use of current landing stage. £540000 over three years. https://www.steam-packet.com/news/1/Jan/PR620-IOMSPC_invests_£540000_to_safeguard_Liverpoo

So 70 odd million would secure just over 400 years at that rate. I could be dead by then.

[Roger Mexico]

30 minutes ago, littlebushy said:

Gawne states its going to be an extra 5 minute walk. To put that in context....that's 10 minute mile pace. Or in even more context, the average steam packet foot passenger should complete the Parish Walk in 14 hours 20 minutes absolutely smashing Richard Gerrards all time record.

It's 1.14 kilometres according to google, so neared 8 than 6 mph.  You'll get disqualified.

It's a classic example of how Ministers deal with these things.  Someone has told him the 5 minutes story, so he just repeats it and thinks he's done his job.  Even though anyone with the slightest knowledge of Liverpool, or even map-reading would know it's nearer twice that.  A trivial example of a much bigger problem.

[littlebushy]

I would never want to disagree with your research and posts but 20km race walk world record is an average of around 9.8mph. 8 mph won't necessarily get you disqualified!

The rest of your post is spot on!

[asitis]

For what will be closer to 100 million I would have expected hoverboards for every passenger !

[joebean]

Without a thorough investigation of all the circumstances around this, we are all indulging in conjecture about the likely causes of a project escalating in costs to the taxpayer to the tune of many millions. Yes, shit does happen but it appears that every capital project, particularly those with DoI involved, end up with the taxpayer being covered in excrement. It is the taxpayer on this Island who will ultimately be impacted by these failures, whether by increased taxes, continuing taxes or the impacts of cuts to or lack of investment in services. The fact that this has happened time and time again demonstrates that lessons have not be learned, even from experience. This indicates a number of possible causes:

1. The procedures for running capital projects are flawed. 

2. The people responsible for the procedures didn’t bother or think to amend them.

3. There are no procedures and nobody thought there should be.

4. The people responsible for the projects didn’t follow procedures.

5. The people responsible were too stupid to understand the procedures.

6. The people responsible were persuaded not to follow the procedures, for whatever reason.

7. The procedures were followed and understood but shit happened and the people responsible didn’t tell the truth about the consequences.

8. The people responsible for following the procedures thought that they could mismanage the whole thing whilst earning a big salary and leave before the shit that happened hit the fan.

Personally, I think that a minimum of £30 million of additional expenditure gives sufficient reason for the truth to be known. 
 

[snowman]

 

[snowman]

 

[english zloty]

20 hours ago, Stu Peters said:

Nonsense. John Wannenburgh suggested that those responsible for this mess be held to account, and I think we all agree on that. Trouble is, it will be incredibly difficult to prove anything - arses will have been exceptionally well covered to the point that the Nuremberg defence will probably suffice, or the people most responsible will have already departed before the fan is even switched on.

@Stu, I think you've misunderstood critical thinking, which is to gather all available data from a range of stakeholders in order to arrive at the best understanding of a situation, not to mind-dump based on rumour. 

For example, as an MHK, do you know how much money the design team asked for and if this differs considerably from what the Minister of the time would authorise and furthermore, how much less than that the Treasury decided to approve, before the recommendations were made to Tynwald?

Do you know who pressed for work to start so that the new terminal would be ready for the election just gone (not allowing for COVID) even though the design team may have advised a more prudent course of action might be to await the specification of the replacement vessel?

Or per your later comment, who advised the form of contract, and indeed, as it appears you don't know, what forms of contract have and are operating? Target cost pain/gain is probably more appropriate than fixed cost, with so many unknown elements.

Finally, what will your response be if and when PAC finds that the biggest contributor to this 'mess' is in fact the national political system and the degree to which the Executive Council can bully and negatively influence major projects?

 

[asitis]

1 hour ago, snowman said:

 

Doesn't fill one with confidence watching the dredger, I understand it is one of the worst positions for silting on the Mersey. ( Not man in pub a ships captain).

[littlebushy]

4 hours ago, snowman said:

 

There is a lot of rhyming slang in that tweet!

[Non-Believer]

7 hours ago, joebean said:

Without a thorough investigation of all the circumstances around this, we are all indulging in conjecture about the likely causes of a project escalating in costs to the taxpayer to the tune of many millions. Yes, shit does happen but it appears that every capital project, particularly those with DoI involved, end up with the taxpayer being covered in excrement. It is the taxpayer on this Island who will ultimately be impacted by these failures, whether by increased taxes, continuing taxes or the impacts of cuts to or lack of investment in services. The fact that this has happened time and time again demonstrates that lessons have not be learned, even from experience. This indicates a number of possible causes:

1. The procedures for running capital projects are flawed. 

2. The people responsible for the procedures didn’t bother or think to amend them.

3. There are no procedures and nobody thought there should be.

4. The people responsible for the projects didn’t follow procedures.

5. The people responsible were too stupid to understand the procedures.

6. The people responsible were persuaded not to follow the procedures, for whatever reason.

7. The procedures were followed and understood but shit happened and the people responsible didn’t tell the truth about the consequences.

8. The people responsible for following the procedures thought that they could mismanage the whole thing whilst earning a big salary and leave before the shit that happened hit the fan.

Personally, I think that a minimum of £30 million of additional expenditure gives sufficient reason for the truth to be known. 
 

I'm going with suggestions 1. and 8., although not knowingly mismanaging. Just bumbling along as they've done throughout their careers. And it may well prove to be that two have already departed.

I wonder if Mr. Greenhow is currently compiling his defence of the rest of his flock?

Edited December 16, 2021 by Non-Believer
correction

[Andy Onchan]

20 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I'm going with suggestions 1. and 8., although not knowingly mismanaging. Just bumbling along as they've done throughout their careers. And it may well prove to be that two have already departed.

I wonder if Mr. Greenhow is currently compiling his defence of the rest of his flock?

More like his own defence.

[joebean]

23 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

More like his own defence.

I suspect he is not bothering as he knows any investigation by Tynwald will not be looking his way. He tells them what to do and think, not the other way round. 

[Andy Onchan]

You would hope he would be paying attention to all of this going on around him. He's either Officer Commanding CS or he isn't. I'd be very interested to see a job description for his position.