Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Boris Johnson]

1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said:

You would hope he would be paying attention to all of this going on around him. He's either Officer Commanding CS or he isn't. I'd be very interested to see a job description for his position.  

Telling a "Dads Army" type group of elected people how to vote?

Dads Army*is what always comes to my mind when I have ever listened to their "debating" on the radio.

*Dads army crossed with Father Ted, with "Spuan"  waking up and shouting "Are those My Feet?" On a bus.

I bet you can guess who reminds me of Dougal..........................

Hint it begins with a J 🙂

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Boris Johnson

[Boris Johnson]

9 hours ago, english zloty said:

@Stu, I think you've misunderstood critical thinking, which is to gather all available data from a range of stakeholders in order to arrive at the best understanding of a situation, not to mind-dump based on rumour. 

For example, as an MHK, do you know how much money the design team asked for and if this differs considerably from what the Minister of the time would authorise and furthermore, how much less than that the Treasury decided to approve, before the recommendations were made to Tynwald?

Do you know who pressed for work to start so that the new terminal would be ready for the election just gone (not allowing for COVID) even though the design team may have advised a more prudent course of action might be to await the specification of the replacement vessel?

Or per your later comment, who advised the form of contract, and indeed, as it appears you don't know, what forms of contract have and are operating? Target cost pain/gain is probably more appropriate than fixed cost, with so many unknown elements.

Finally, what will your response be if and when PAC finds that the biggest contributor to this 'mess' is in fact the national political system and the degree to which the Executive Council can bully and negatively influence major projects?

 

Forget a PAC waste of time to tell us that lessons need to be learned.

Hand the current contract to a decent multi disciplinary multi national engineering consultancy and let them go through the contract and works to date with diligence.

I would suggest one of the bigger outfits, the likes of Arcadis, Arup, Balfour Beatty etc etc. Some big outfit like them that are not currently relying on IOM gov work to survive.

It would be money well spent and if they show the current advisors are negligent we could hit them on their P.I. 

[Happier diner]

27 minutes ago, Boris Johnson said:

Forget a PAC waste of time to tell us that lessons need to be learned.

Hand the current contract to a decent multi disciplinary multi national engineering consultancy and let them go through the contract and works to date with diligence.

I would suggest one of the bigger outfits, the likes of Arcadis, Arup, Balfour Beatty etc etc. Some big outfit like them that are not currently relying on IOM gov work to survive.

It would be money well spent and if they show the current advisors are negligent we could hit them on their P.I. 

Who is the engineering consultant. I thought it was AECOM but not 100% sure. Anyone know?

[quilp]

Bob the Builder. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, quilp said:

Bob the Builder. 

No. He is the contractor. 

[joebean]

14 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

You would hope he would be paying attention to all of this going on around him. He's either Officer Commanding CS or he isn't. I'd be very interested to see a job description for his position.  

He does not command anything, apart from CoMIN. I suspect less so with AC. 

[ptarmigan]

PAC is pretty much a waste of time, they have no experience or understanding in these areas. It should be outsourced to someone who does but the focus should be how does this go forward.   Skelly says  he doesn’t know how much more it will cost or how long it will take, which is honest but terrifying. 

[Manxman2000]

when the present landing stage was built the cost was split between Liverpool city council 1/3,  Merseyside county council 1/3 and the steam packet 1/3.   at the time the steam packet was in trouble finically and could not pay their share.  That brought the then chairman David Dixon to pull out of Liverpool, so he said "for good".  for the Isle of Man to spend £70 mil on a terminal that is not able to take freight on a regular basis and to have restrictions on times of operation is crazy.  and the cost is £70 mil now with costs for everything now going up at a stupid rate what will the final cost be £80 mil £90 mil somewhere between I'll bet.

as far as I know the planning for a bridge to link Princes parade to the terminal has not yet been granted, that may now be in place. otherwise the walk is more than 5 mins.  I have walked along princes parade many times to the now long forgotten HMS Eaglet.  its a lot more than 5 Mins and that's without a case or bags.

[2112]

2 hours ago, Manxman2000 said:

when the present landing stage was built the cost was split between Liverpool city council 1/3,  Merseyside county council 1/3 and the steam packet 1/3.   at the time the steam packet was in trouble finically and could not pay their share.  That brought the then chairman David Dixon to pull out of Liverpool, so he said "for good".  for the Isle of Man to spend £70 mil on a terminal that is not able to take freight on a regular basis and to have restrictions on times of operation is crazy.  and the cost is £70 mil now with costs for everything now going up at a stupid rate what will the final cost be £80 mil £90 mil somewhere between I'll bet.

as far as I know the planning for a bridge to link Princes parade to the terminal has not yet been granted, that may now be in place. otherwise the walk is more than 5 mins.  I have walked along princes parade many times to the now long forgotten HMS Eaglet.  its a lot more than 5 Mins and that's without a case or bags.

What about the road connection - I thought they are building a new road?

[Non-Believer]

4 hours ago, ptarmigan said:

Skelly says he doesn’t know how much more it will cost or how long it will take, which is honest but terrifying. 

Although you could attribute that assessment to anything that Skelly's been near... 😂

[asitis]

22 hours ago, ptarmigan said:

PAC is pretty much a waste of time, they have no experience or understanding in these areas. It should be outsourced to someone who does but the focus should be how does this go forward.   Skelly says  he doesn’t know how much more it will cost or how long it will take, which is honest but terrifying. 

Skellys admissions re costs and time scales would be the exact reasons for me why we shouldn't part with another penny until such time as those issues are explored and placed on a more defined footing ! seems one error after another tbh.

[Happier diner]

4 hours ago, asitis said:

Skellys admissions re costs and time scales would be the exact reasons for me why we shouldn't part with another penny until such time as those issues are explored and placed on a more defined footing ! seems one error after another tbh.

Like I have said previously. That would put us in breach of contract and would be unlawful. 

[asitis]

21 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Like I have said previously. That would put us in breach of contract and would be unlawful. 

Is the contract public ?

Is there not a lawful remedy where despite having signed a contract its terms are deemed unfair to one party ?

I feel we roll over too easily, we must be a joke in boardrooms in the UK !

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, asitis said:

Is the contract public ?

Is there not a lawful remedy where despite having signed a contract its terms are deemed unfair to one party ?

I feel we roll over too easily, we must be a joke in boardrooms in the UK !

Is the contract public ? No. There will be commercial confidentiality. You would imagine board reports and financial reports were in the public domain though

Is there not a lawful remedy where despite having signed a contract its terms are deemed unfair to one party

Fairness does not come into it

I feel we roll over too easily, we must be a joke in boardrooms in the UK ! We won't be alone

[Petefella]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:05 AM, ptarmigan said:

PAC is pretty much a waste of time, they have no experience or understanding in these areas. It should be outsourced to someone who does but the focus should be how does this go forward.   Skelly says  he doesn’t know how much more it will cost or how long it will take, which is honest but terrifying. 

It needs investigating. I've just written to my MHK on this. I don't think its fair that the briefing was a private briefing and I've sent an email as I want him to explain to me in very clear terms why he voted for this disaster. Its like we've been denied any public debate on this and they've mostly backed it because they've been scared by the DOI that the cost would be even more mental if they pulled out and re-grouped elsewhere. One of my MHKs is Wannanburgh who at least said its mad and voted against but I think Ashord owns me and everyone else in North Douglas a detailed explanation as to why he's backing throwing another thirty million plus at this national embarrasment when they can't even find support money to give my business to cover my Xmas losses until the end of January.