Explosion at Manchester Arena

[guzzi]

John, that is an interesting point.  When I think about waves of immigration, and a ladder out of the ghetto I think more about Britain than the US. The classic Brick Lane succession of Huguenots, Jews, Bengalis.  In the US, the situation was more chaotic, especially in the 19th and early 20th Centuries when a rapidly expanding and industrialising country drew in immigrants  from all over Europe and elsewhere.   A time of massive economic growth, and the expansion of the country itself provided plenty of opportunity and provided a rung up the ladder for many. Your observation about the political class might fit with that quite well, as descendants of the original colonists largely stayed put, building business and political empires from their East Coast strongholds.

What I would conclude is that integration depends on the ability to climb the economic ladder. That depends partly on culture  (and the US was less encumbered with class and tradition than the U.K.) but most of all on strong economic growth. In fact most 'liberal'  values actually depend on growth. If that disappears, our cherished institutions start to disappear as well.

So depressingly, I think that a moribund capitalism such as ours will inevitably lose the ability to successfully integrate immigrants.  I think seeing immigration as some sort of engine for growth is arse-about face.  The focus for economic migration has to be elsewhere, not on the tired old European economies.  Otherwise, we end up with an unrewarded, disaffected underclass who are predisposed to bomb the crap out of us. However, things are as they are, and the emphasis needs to shift into making sure the people here are engaged in society and properly rewarded.  Economic migration needs to be drastically curtailed.

[llap]

Manchester attack: CCTV shows bomber before arena blast - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40072786

 

See, he perfectly fits the description of a likely terrorist suspect I provided a few days ago. Plus why would someone who looks and dresses like that be lurking around an Arianna Grande concert? If not a terrorist, I'd definitely suspect him of being a pedo.

[llap]

Nothing is stopping Muslims from climbing the economic ladder in the UK or IOM. They have access to the same education and training opportunities anyone else has. If economic ladder stagnation was a determinant factor in terrorism, why aren't poor working class natives not blowing people up? Because the root cause is extremist islamic ideology. That is not rocket science.

[guzzi]

1 hour ago, llap said:

Nothing is stopping Muslims from climbing the economic ladder in the UK or IOM. They have access to the same education and training opportunities anyone else has. If economic ladder stagnation was a determinant factor in terrorism, why aren't poor working class natives not blowing people up? Because the root cause is extremist islamic ideology. That is not rocket science.

The discussion was about countries that have had most success in integrating immigrants, specifically the example of the US.  My argument is that vigorous economic growth is an important prerequisite.

I also chose the word 'predisposed' as I did not intend to suggest a simple, single factor, cause for terrorism.  I think it's more a case of creating as little fertile ground for jihadist ideas to grow in the UK as possible.

No, the alienated and disaffected poor generally have not launched terrorist attacks simply on the basis of their disadvantaged position.  But one precondition is there. Stir in another factor, like jihadist theology, or nationalism, or revolutionary ideology, and you might see violence.

 

[woody2]

which country was the most educated in the last 100 years.....

[paswt]

Canada ?

[hboy]

22 hours ago, Mr. Sausages said:

British Pakistanis account for 3% of births.  And 30% of births with genetic defects. Most likely due to the tradition of cousin marriage.  Bit of a taboo subject though, getting into The Bell Curve territory.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html

That doesn't surprise me. Looking at the CCTV footage today on the BBC he looks a bit of a mong to me. I'm not surprised they find it so easy to radicalize these sort of people over the internet in the first place as such a big proportion of some communities are probably inbred. Must be like shooting fish in a barrel. 

[woody2]

1 hour ago, paswt said:

Canada ?

germany in the 1930's and look who they voted for.....

[Tarne]

Just leave that one there... 

[homarus]

2 hours ago, Tarne said:

Just leave that one there... 

Except, the poor lad didn't have to wait decades did he! 

[La Colombe]

Another stupid racist.

[quilp]

White, white van man. Such angry, racial-abuse happens all the time, has been happening for decades. This episode is hardly anything new, unfortunately. 

[homarus]

 

    I don''t know what's worse !  A  White racist  verbally abusing a hero surgeon or a  Racist who wanders into a pop concert and murders dozens of kids, or even groups of  interbred  racists   who seem to think it's acceptable to gang rape underage kids???

     As long as they're white of course,ooh it 's a tough one !

[La Colombe]

Oh, I didn't realise it was a competition.  

[mojomonkey]

15 minutes ago, homarus said:

 

    I don''t know what's worse !  A  White racist  verbally abusing a hero surgeon or a  Racist who wanders into a pop concert and murders dozens of kids, or even groups of  interbred  racists   who seem to think it's acceptable to gang rape underage kids???

     As long as they're white of course,ooh it 's a tough one !

Moronic, they are of different degrees of severity but both are twats.