Bobbie Bobster Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Why do you say it's a police state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 15 hours ago, MediaStar said: I think you'll find that it was me who suggested that he was probably some drunk which seems pretty much to be accurate from that Press Association quote. He certainly doesn't seem to be a terrorists does he? He has been portrayed as a man with well documented issues with alcohol who had apparently got kicked out of the pub the night before for being drunk and making anti Islamic insults, he then apparently slept in his van, and then went off to London to mow a few people down. It's not suggestive of terrorism at all. It certainly is suggestive of terrorism. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Westminster. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Finsbury Park. As far as I can see the only difference is competence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Declan said: It certainly is suggestive of terrorism. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Westminster. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Finsbury Park. As far as I can see the only difference is competence. he wasn't born in the uk....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Oh so he wasn't. Still a terrorist though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Declan said: It certainly is suggestive of terrorism. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Westminster. Disaffected guy born in Britain runs down people in Finsbury Park. As far as I can see the only difference is competence. I disagree. To me the difference between lone nutcase and terrorist is the word 'lone'. It may be that the guy who blew up the kids in Manchester was a lone nutcase and IS opportunistically claimed responsibility. It may be that the Finsbury park guy is part of a white supremacist group in which case he's a terrorist. It may seem like a semantic argument when the actions of each are comparable, but for me at least, terrorist implies a group, if acting alone it implies psychopathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 It's quite something that I was considering terrorists actions while at work the other day (I was not considering taking them up, I was taking it into consideration as part of something I was doing). I'm not sure I would class any of the recent nutters as actual terrorists, there are much better ways of doing what they want & they wouldn't have to die in the process, it all seems a bit stupid to me. Running people over with a van? Really? Oooh you big terror you, lame. Blowing yourself up has to be top of "What do you actually think is going to happen next?" cuckoo, the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I think they are copy cat terrorists. They aren't real, bona fide terrorists with a membership card and the standard issue balaclava. They're wannabe terrorists who want to take the fight to the enemy like the big boys are doing and thus they can be a big boy too, just look and see. I totally agree with Trump (and quite a few academics who use the term in a slightly more complex way) that these people are losers who want to be so much more and use their petty and cruel inhumanity to gain terrorist legitimacy for their hate. For the bloke from Cardiff there aren't that many real terrorists to gain inspiration from - rather there are clusters of nasty wannabe terrorists saying nasty things to each other on the internet trying to spur each other on. For the Jihadi Johns of this world though there is a whole other level that can be added above the internet warriors and ranters down the pub. There is a huge difference between the National Front or whatever racist Islamophobic renta-mob you want to name and ISIS. Certainly Britain First or whatever contain violent hate groups, but they are nothing like ISIS. ISIS is a massively more dangerous phenomenon. I don't agree with those who claim there is some sort of equivalency between the racist, Islamophobic terrorism of Darren Osbourne and Islamic Terrorism - it is like comparing a pike with a great white shark. Anyone who deliberately drives a car into a group of people is a shit who has lost their moral compass. All these people are that - and all of them are simply copy cat wannabe terrorists - but Islamo-fascism is a far far greater and far more motivated and dangerous force than western fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: I totally agree with Trump (and quite a few academics who use the term in a slightly more complex way) that these people are losers who want to be so much more and use their petty and cruel inhumanity to gain terrorist legitimacy for their hate. Anyone who deliberately drives a car into a group of people is a shit who has lost their moral compass. All these people are that - and all of them are simply copy cat wannabe terrorists. Yes I totally agree with you there. They are all disaffected losers who wish to make a statement to the world. But a lot of it is driven by some form of misplaced ideology. Some are scooped up on the internet and sucked into the world of Islamic indoctrination via Facebook and Twitter. And some are just disaffected people who see that happening and tie their post to the EDP or UKIP indoctrination as a counterweight. Unfortunately I think the tide has perhaps turned the other way now. This chap was a bit shit at the delivery stage which suggests he was alone wolf who was not indoctrinated or guided or instructed by anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 labour pose more of a risk to the uk than isis.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, woody2 said: labour pose more of a risk to the uk than isis.... False equivalency. Both are potential risks, but in totally different senses and extents. Statistically the danger posed by IS is tiny to the average member of the population but they make good headlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I love how the Queen called them Daesh in her speech before Parliament. That is what we should be calling these scum. It really irritates them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Saudis foil attack on Grand Mosque in Mecca I'm not a fan of Islam but here is more evidence that ISIS / Daesh are not Muslims. Or, if they are then they are definitely heretical ones and do not represent Islam or Muslims. This is the equivalent of a Roman Catholic going to Rome and trying to blow up St Peter's Basilica, or an Orthodox Jew going to Jerusalem to blow up the Western Wall. These people are murdering Muslims as well as everyone else. They are clearly just scumbags, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Clearly the Finsbury Park attacker is a terrorist. Just the same, for example, as any other "self radicalised lone wolf". There is no difference between 'friending' or following (eg on Facebook and Twitter) ISIS or some daft English loyalist types - eg Britain First or the EDL. The modern terrorist attaches himself to a cause - but probably does not belong officially to a group or cell. Or - if arguing that this is a symptom of mental illness then we have to equally apply that to Islamic terrorists. What we are witnessing is an escalation of tit-for-tat sectarian terror. ETA: also ISIS wants to create sectarian divisions and a sectarian response. Anti Islamic people in general - and groups like Britain First and the EDL - are doing their work for them. The people here who post anti Islamic comments are on the same side as IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 3 hours ago, pongo said: Anti Islamic people in general - and groups like Britain First and the EDL - are doing their work for them. The people here who post anti Islamic comments are on the same side as IS. This is far too strong. Islam will have no future in the west if it cannot learn to take criticism. Muslims cannot see their religion as privileged against criticism. One of the most pernicious sides of Islam is its demand the apostate and blasphemer are killed. No religion which takes this as a core tenant (and similar tenants exist about stoning witches, insulters of fathers, and non-virgins at marriage in Jewish and Christian texts, but it is understood they are of their time) has a place in modern society. This is the challenge at the heart of modern Islam - will it break from the likes of IS and create a clear divide - this is not my religion when they claim slavery, genocide and stoning adulterous women are tenants for today's world. Islam has to accept criticism, accept people disagree with its tenants, accept people can think it is hogwash and so what. Doing that is not doing IS's work - it is a perfectly normal part of a pluralistic society. Islam has the perfect right to be a part of that society - but only if it accepts other can and do think differently from them and can criticise Islam if they wish. No one has a right to demand they are never subject to ridicule or insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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