Anti-semitic loser Roger Waters (previously of Pink Floyd) makes fool of himself

[RIchard Britten]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-destroys-palestinian-schools-before-new-term-occupied-west-bank-jub-ad-dhib-a7910356.html

[paswt]

I was given to understand that the Israeli authorities normally give the occupiers of properties ('without  planning permission') notice as if the authorities demolish they present the owners/occupiers with  a considerable bill . 

Information given by a member of the multi faith observers team who just 'witness' the 'events' in Israel.

just saying

[guzzi]

If they gave notice of the demolition, would it change anything?

Zoom out a little and keep in mind that this happened in occupied territory on the West Bank.  Territory that Israel is occupying illegally and in breach of international law.

Demolishing these Portacabin style classrooms, donated by the EU and other international bodies, typifies the cruel and vindictive behaviour of Israel in these territories. Please refer to the report, which states that planning applications for structures in the occupied territory by Palestinians are almost invariably turned down. My interpretation is that is because the overal intent is to integrate the land into Israel, by allowing Jewish settlement whilst trying to prevent Arab consolidation in land that is rightfully theirs.

The strategy of characterising such criticism as anti-Semitic is being used to try to put the lid on legitimate concerns. 

I have no problem at all with a Jewish homeland in Israel, within its UN sanctioned 1967 borders.

[RIchard Britten]

[paswt]

good post 'guzzi' I was also given to understand that farmland was not worked for two years then it was forfeited to the Israeli Government . Farmers plough their land , no point in trying to cultivate/ plant olive trees as they would be mysteriously trashed overnight with the apparent collision of the forces of 'law and order'.

Giving notice of demolition gives the Palestinian owners the option of demolishing the property themselves in order to prevent the government presenting them with a bill (and in event of non payment presumably 'stealing the land').

Just saying

[guzzi]

RB those maps do demonstrate, at least in my opinion, the folly of the Arab states in turning down the UN proposed partition of 1947. 

[woolley]

53 minutes ago, guzzi said:

RB those maps do demonstrate, at least in my opinion, the folly of the Arab states in turning down the UN proposed partition of 1947. 

Their mindset is and always has been that they can force the Israelis into the sea. With that outlook there will be no progress. Sadat made peace. Look what happened to him at the hands of his own. Someone should tell them about the wonders of multiculturism and peaceful co-existence.

[RIchard Britten]

5 minutes ago, woolley said:

Their mindset is and always has been that they can force the Israelis into the sea. With that outlook there will be no progress. Sadat made peace. Look what happened to him at the hands of his own. Someone should tell them about the wonders of multiculturism and peaceful co-existence.

So what impression of Israel do you think the kids who had their class rooms flattened by Israelis forces are going to take away from all this?

Israel, and its on-going illegal occupation is an apartheid state that is literally creating its own problem.

[woolley]

That's the one side. The other side is that they are surrounded by hostile territories whose occupants seek their annihilation. Are they going to withdraw to 1948 borders so that deadly enemies can encircle them on smaller territory? Not gonna happen is it?

[RIchard Britten]

1 minute ago, woolley said:

That's the one side. The other side is that they are surrounded by hostile territories whose occupants seek their annihilation. Are they going to withdraw to 1948 borders so that deadly enemies can encircle them on smaller territory? Not gonna happen is it?

Well that is a version of it ...

[RIchard Britten]

Here is a slightly more nuanced and more educated view point that woolley's "head in the sand" version:

"

TL;DR: Generally the answer is yes, but — as is often the case — it’s a lot more nuanced than that.

Israel’s immediate neighbors are — clockwise starting at the north — Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Slightly farther away are Turkey, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. Finally, there is the rest of the Gulf and Iran, all within striking distance.

Then, of course, there’s the Palestinian Authority (PA), which is not technically a country.

(I’m ignoring Cyprus for now, because it’s not a significant player in this discussion, but Greek Cyprus has a very good relationship with Israel.)

All of the countries I listed are Arab (except Iran and Turkey) and Muslim-majority (with the possible exception of Lebanon, which has a complex religious makeup). All of them have in the past declared war against Israel at least once. Most are members of the Arab League, which until about 2000 had an official position vowing "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.",[1] and Iran has repeatedly expressed its opinion[2]that Israel is to be destroyed.

Many of these countries, and to some extent the PA, have supported or still do support terrorism against Israel and against Jewish entities worldwide.

On the other hand, both Egypt and Jordan have struck peace agreements with Israel (Egypt in 1979, Jordan in 1994) and those have largely been stable. The relationship is hardly “warm”, but there is bilateral trade, military coordination, tourism, and other aspects of cooperation, and there have been no overt — or even publicly implied — military threats made by either side for decades.

The PA is technically at peace with Israel. There is significant cooperation on security, infrastructure, and trade, and the PA essentially owes its continued existence to Israeli support.

However, there is deep distrust between Israelis and Palestinians, and most Israelis view the Palestinians as enemies or at least potential enemies. Certainly most Palestinians view Israel as an oppressor and therefore an enemy. The Hamas government in Gaza is officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel (even though there is some cooperation even there on security and economic issues.)

Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf countries, while still nominally at war with Israel, have de-facto recognized it and accepted that it will have to be negotiated with. This is in large part driven by the rise of Iran as a common enemy, and the fact that they have other bigger problems to worry about (oil prices, Yemen, Syria, Al Jazeera…)

Until 2011 Syria was the main immediate military threat to Israel, but we all know what happened to it since. Lebanon is barely functioning, and although Hizballah is still a bitter enemy, and is very powerful in Lebanon, it too has been mostly sucked into the Syrian quagmire. Iraq has not been a threat since the American invasion in 2003, although it is not in any way friendly with Israel, and is deeply influenced by Iran, now the “official #1” enemy of Israel.

The situation with Turkey is very interesting, and somewhat depressing. While majority-Muslim, Turkey is nominally secular, and until recently its government and military had been adamant to suppress Islam as a political power. It is also ethnically not Arab, and was wary of its Muslim-Arab neighbors (Syria and Iraq) and — since the Iranian revolution — of Iran as well.

This has led it to see Israel as a natural ally. Israel, of course, was happy to find a friendly face in a tough neighborhood, so the result was a warm relationship and close ties on many levels: military and diplomatic cooperation, intelligence sharing, flourishing trade and tourism, etc.

All that has changed since the AK party and President (then-PM) Erdogan came to power in 2003. The party — which has done some great things for Turkey, by the way — has pushed for wider acceptance of Islam in the public sphere, and for warmer relations with its Muslim neighbors. It has also been far cooler towards Israel, especially since the Gaza war of 2005, and Erdogan himself has made several strong statements against Israel, although none (that I can find) suggesting that he doesn’t recognize its right to exist."

[woolley]

Right, so what does that change? All you have done is listed the degrees with which their enmity towards Israel is expressed by those in power at the time. In all of the surrounding territories there are groups who would indeed like to see the annihilation of Israel and leaders come and go. The one thing that endures is the hatred and that is undeniable.

And like I said:

That's the one side. The other side is that they are surrounded by hostile territories whose occupants seek their annihilation. Are they going to withdraw to 1948 borders so that deadly enemies can encircle them on smaller territory? Not gonna happen is it?

How do you view China in relation to Tibet? Can you solve that by recourse to international law? Might is right is the way things work in reality.

 

[RIchard Britten]

I view China's illegal occupation of Tibet in the same dim view as I do Israel's illegal occupations of Palestine.

Quote

Can you solve that by recourse to international law? Might is right is the way things work in reality.

So if I came around and kicked your front door down and took your stuff, would you call the police or just shrug and say "well might is right"?

The fact that Israel has very, very powerful allies (i.e. the West funnelling funds and arms as well as failing to act upon Israel's illegal activities) makes applying international law to them almost impossible.

[woolley]

You've answered your own point. In this situation there are no "police" to call, but don't run away with the idea that the problem is all on Israel because it isn't. If you start life under threat of annihilation by your neighbours you prepare for the worst and this is not conducive to friendly relations farther down the road.

[RIchard Britten]

2 minutes ago, woolley said:

You've answered your own point. In this situation there are no "police" to call, but don't run away with the idea that the problem is all on Israel because it isn't. If you start life under threat of annihilation by your neighbours you prepare for the worst and this is not conducive to friendly relations farther down the road.

Conversely, acting like the school bully while hiding behind your bigger, nastier mate isn't the way to go either.