A Guide to Russia’s High Tech Tool Box for Subverting Liberal Democracy

[pongo]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

It all keeps the military tax dollar flowing if everyone is shit scared of the Russians. That's all anyone that counts is worried about.

But what about the article?

It seems to make sense and it very much fits in with what we see. RT for example is happy to provide a platform for almost anyone in the Democracies working against the status quo. Farage and Corbyn being obvious examples. In this respect it makes no difference whether they are deliberately allowing themselves to be used as agents of influence. Their role, from the Putin perspective, is to represent a discord. It doesn't really matter what they say as long as it is anti. And online, in the comments and on social media there is a constant avalanche from bogus troll factory accounts. It's organised and sinister. Often fairly sharp and snappy. But almost always negative and contrary. It's about creating populist ideas which then get repeated and spread - about how liberalism and economics has failed. About how we are doomed. And it's always easier to make a negative or shouty perspective seem sharper (that's what so many shallow comedians have done for example over the past decades).

[woolley]

What if it isn't organised and sinister though? What if it's spontaneous and what people actually think however inconvenient and contrary? I know that is difficult for liberals to get their heads around because they have spent decades suppressing any contrary views through political correctness.

[pongo]

18 minutes ago, woolley said:

What if it isn't organised and sinister though? What if it's spontaneous and what people actually think however incovenient and contrary? I know that is difficult for liberals to get their heads around because they have spent decades suppressing any contrary views through political correctness.

But we know from the media companies themselves and from the server logs how much of the traffic is coming from single points in Russia and / or the botnets. Now you could argue that this is black ops - but it certainly isn't spontaneous or sincere.

I still do the admin, load balancing etc for a handful of servers in the US. When I look in the logs I always see that they are under a constant Russian barrage.

[woolley]

Yes. I know that there are all kinds of forces at work right now. I just think it is a good thing that the suppression of everything except the authorised liberal, politically correct "hour of well-being" type dessimination of information has been busted and the consternation that that is causing in high places.

[pongo]

1 minute ago, woolley said:

Yes. I know that there are all kinds of forces at work right now. I just think it is a good thing that the suppression of everything except the authorised liberal, politically correct "hour of well-being" type dessimination of information has been busted and the consternation that that is causing in high places.

So what you are saying is not that the article I linked to is necessarily inaccurate - but rather that, regardless, you support to some degree the outcome?

[woolley]

I confess I haven't waded through it all, Pongo. I'll see if I can get to it later. I can guess at the thrust. Yes. To some degree I support the shake up.

[pongo]

Excellent. So basically I can link to anything, give it whatever title I like and you'll have a stab at commenting on what you guess it might be about.

[woolley]

Well. The comment I made is not contingent on knowledge of the article. I did not pass comment on that at all. I gave an opinion on the basis of your post in the thread.

However, where you are going in linking the article it is not a mystery is it? Or maybe I'm just psychic?

[pongo]

The article is the thing, not how I introduce it. You might bring away something completely different. That's how this thing works.

[Chinahand]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

How ironic that this is cited in defence of global liberalism which has been testing it for decades.

Thinking about this, no this isn't about global liberalism. It is about undermining civil society. 

They are different things, but they do seem to be conflated by those who don't like globalisation. 

The undermining of democracy, a free press and civil society is something Russia and China are actively pursuing. 

China is the world's standard bearer for Globalisation at the moment, but that is different from its campaigns against civil society. 

China still mainly only does this on the domestic stage but you are missing a major change in international affairs if you dismiss Russia's involvement in promoting disruptive politics and undermining the press and civil society. 

Saying it is all just liberal propaganda and the self interest of the arms industry is missing a big part of the picture. 

[pongo]

^ see look Woolley. Chinahand is taking something different away from it. Subtly different and more considered than my simplistic take on it.

[woolley]

I would expect nothing less than a forensic report from Chinahand. I am sorry to cause disappointment here but I am actually conducting business too while I am doing this during the day. I promise I will try to find time to read the confounded thing.............

[woolley]

I got about half way through and skimmed the rest. I don't see anything new here. It's vested interests shoring up their positions. I see the liberal elites sore at recent reverses and lashing out. More regurgitation of the unsubstantiated allegations about the Trump campaign, overblown stories of interference in the US election and even the Brexit referendum. All countries use all means at their disposal in espionage and Russia is no different. If the result is that the established conventional wisdoms of the second half of the 20th century no longer have everything entirely their own way that is a good thing. They only pay lip service to democracy in any case.

It's a bit rich of the US to complain of Russia feeling threatened when the West missed a golden opportunity at the time of the Soviet collapse to assist them in adapting to the new situation. Instead they turned the screw and made Moscow feel even more encircled.

[Lxxx]

Here's one for your tin hat Pongo. What if the same forces are at work on both sides of the equation, to gradually subvert the West to make it much easier to assimilate them into some global collective state run along the lines of China's model.

By highlighting Russia as some bad guy doesn't reflect their true role as just another tool is the suppression of true democracy across the world.  

[pongo]

2 minutes ago, Lxxx said:

What if the same forces are at work on both sides of the equation, to gradually subvert the West to make it much easier to assimilate them into some global collective state run along the lines of China's model.

Seriously? What if?

What if aliens or lizards?

Evidence?