sausage Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 And almost half a century passed after Lee's death before it was felt necessary to erect a statue of the guy in Charlottesville....wonder why it took so long and was deemed necessary in the early 1920's...important historical symbol my arse..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, RIchard Britten said: As others have commented before me: How is taking down a statue "re-writing" history. Its a statue, there isn't a whole sale deleting of all references from all books, films, museums and the internet. It is in a way. Statues are rarely put up to the living. They are themselves a subsequent generation's view of people and subjects past. The Confederate statues weren't erected by the Civil War leaders themselves or even their soldiers but in the 1920's, when Jim Crow laws were enacted, when the KKK became more prominent and civil rights gains in the aftermath of reconstruction were rowed back on. They were about re-presenting the Confederacy as heroic - standing up for states rights against the federal government. The statues themselves were put up to rewrite history. But just because they are cast in bronze doesn't make them the last word on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 minute ago, sausage said: And almost half a century passed after Lee's death before it was felt necessary to erect a statue of the guy in Charlottesville....wonder why it took so long and was deemed necessary in the early 1920's...important historical symbol my arse..... It's an interesting artifact of the 1920's and the sentiment of the South at that time. But belongs in a museum not a town square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 It's the Dukes of Hazard that I feel sorry for, renaming and respraying your car isn't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 hour ago, RIchard Britten said: You can't reason with Nazis, Nazi sympathizers and Nazi apologists. If you could...they wouldn't be Nazis, Nazi sympathizers or Nazi apologists. We can't reason with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottyLisa Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, woolley said: We can't reason with you. So which does that make you then? a Nazi, a sympathizer or an apologist? Just kidding, I know what you meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 59 minutes ago, Declan said: includes those involved in the birth of a nation Was it a coincidence you using that exact phrase? The film (1915) is apparently often credited with being part of what lead to the reemergence of the KKK into the 1920s when these statues went up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 I'm not sure it was a coincidence. That film crossed my mind as I wrote about the 1920's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Oh put a sock in it. I don't generally agree with Charles Krauthammer, but he makes very good points in this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 10 hours ago, pongo said: Was it a coincidence you using that exact phrase? The film (1915) is apparently often credited with being part of what lead to the reemergence of the KKK into the 1920s when these statues went up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation I've watched it several times and for the most part The Birth of a Nation is a fairly historically accurate film. Have any of you even bothered to watch it all the way through once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 11 hours ago, Declan said: I would be cool with that - anti-British rebels! Actually, it is a difficult question because values change over time and the importance of various be-plinthed figures fades as history moves on. Will 200 years from now our descendants feel that a statue of George Formby needs to be outside the town hall? You could understand them moving it to the museum. I'm thinking maybe we've reached that point with Rhodes and Colston, and British cities could perhaps use that space to celebrate more worthy people. However, there are some people that take a long time to fade from history and that includes those involved in the birth of a nation, like Jefferson and Washington. So whilst history shouldn't be blind to their flaws, it can't allow the flaws to blind us to their achievements either. This whole re-writing of history idea is completely stupid, Declan. It may work here and there but you open up a pandora's box with no end to it if you really go down that road. I think monuments of the past serve as a reminder. A statue of, let's say Cromwell, isn't preserved because we all glorify and love him. These statues of him are there because he was part of our journey to where we are now, "warts and all" as he would say. The same with Churchill. Should be get rid of his statue because of Dresden? I think it's best to leave it all to local communities. If somebody wants to take down a monument, fine, they can take that view, but people who want to see the monument stay also have a right to their view. People shouldn't be using the levers of government power to push their views on others. If some morons want to take down a monument, there should be prior notification so that those who do want to preserve the monument have an opportunity to take it and put it elsewhere. But to see people pulling down Civil War monuments like the pulling down of Saddam's statue in Iraq, is really beyond the pale and an obvious incitement to violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Well said that man. Cromwell's a good example: a key figure in the evolution of our Parliamentary democracy and the history of these islands but also a hated figure to many. Churchill was also a flawed and complex man but undoubtedly a great one and the finest politician we've ever had. There are many revisionists though who'd dispute this and would happily see his reputation trashed. We're only a hair's breadth from tearing down monuments and flags in this country too. There's long been a snobbery and hatred of the flag of St George - though curiously not of the Welsh or Scottish national flags. It's that old English guilt and self-loathing thing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 i'm not so sure the english hate themselves, certainly not to the level that all other countries hate them anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausage Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Meanwhile...in the real world...Somebody directly and sadly impacted by the 'non violent statue lovers' has their say.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40977695 Honestly the daily Trump news catch up at the moment consists of: Read the news and find out what monumental fuck up/lie/error of judgement/bullshit/offensive/ill advised statement the president has made Check to see which of his formerly 'brilliant/fantastic/wonderful/doing a great job/the best people have quit on him and distanced themselves from him as much as possble Check social media for the same old suspects who STILL cannot bring themselves to admit that perhaps maybe they got this one wrong and just admit they guy is a complete and utter disaster..... I honestly think to myself ok its another day...it cant happen again....and then it does....it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the good American folk I know who are devastated that Trump represents their country at the moment and have to live with the consequences of electing this twat and seeing the results of his rhetoric... Odds on resignation anyone ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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