woody2 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, RIchard Britten said: Note the officer on the right trying to rip her mobile phone from her hand. Reckon she probably filmed them doing something they don't want getting out into the public eye. should of moved when told.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 5 hours ago, Declan said: Then the Madrid government should put that argument to the people of Catalunya. Call another referendum. There's a strong possibility they'll win. Not doing that strengthens the nationalist cause but is also a hammer blow to democratic values. Suggesting a state can't cede from a larger one without the consent of the larger nation destroys fundamental principle of self determination. Ah, democratic values. The ultimate arbiter of fine decisions. If any given minority can simply call a vote within it's own ranks and claim legitimacy for breaking away from the nation as a whole, then we are headed to perdition. That's one damn good reason for a state to have an independent judicial arm to safeguard the constitutionality of actions such as the Catalan referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 they don't seem as rich as some people make out in 2014 they have paid on average €10bn more in taxes but... since 2012 have taken €67bn from a fund on top of that they also owe €77bn of which €52bn is owed to spain it seems to be losing money not making it= mad socialists....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 9 hours ago, Declan said: Then the Madrid government should put that argument to the people of Catalunya. Call another referendum. There's a strong possibility they'll win. Not doing that strengthens the nationalist cause but is also a hammer blow to democratic values. Suggesting a state can't cede from a larger one without the consent of the larger nation destroys fundamental principle of self determination. FFS Declan how many more times do you have to be told???!!! Here in Reality Land a National Government is not going to let one of it's provinces declare independence that then undermines the security of the State. Something the Guardia Civil is there to prevent. Plus it's in their constitution that they can use force to put it down. And guess what? The last place that actually made a go of it was Bangladesh. Go figure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 PK. Nothing is for ever. I hate the thought of Spain breaking up. It's one of my favourite places in the world, but that is kind of up to them to sort out. It's always a question of real politik in the end. Yes there is a constitution and you don't give it up lightly. You wave it in front of them, accuse them of sedition, take them to court, throw 'em in jail, kill a few. It might do the trick. It might postpone the inevitable, but you cannot keep an entire population, or a majority within a structure against its will whilst pretending to be a democracy. Franco could do it by force but he was a dictator and nobody expected anything else. Consider the example of the Republic of Ireland. Britain tried all the remedies listed above and more to keep the lid on Ireland within the UK. In the end we finished up with the messy situation of partition, the effects of which are still reverberating almost a century later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Just now, woolley said: PK. Nothing is for ever. I hate the thought of Spain breaking up. It's one of my favourite places in the world, but that is kind of up to them to sort out. It's always a question of real politik in the end. Yes there is a constitution and you don't give it up lightly. You wave it in front of them, accuse them of sedition, take them to court, throw 'em in jail, kill a few. It might do the trick. It might postpone the inevitable, but you cannot keep an entire population, or a majority within a structure against its will whilst pretending to be a democracy. Franco could do it by force but he was a dictator and nobody expected anything else. Consider the example of the Republic of Ireland. Britain tried all the remedies listed above and more to keep the lid on Ireland within the UK. In the end we finished up with the messy situation of partition, the effects of which are still reverberating almost a century later. Sure nothing is forever. As I have posted many times in the past even The Greater French Empire EU will have to either reform or fall. What a delicious irony it would be if Brexit was the catalyst to make it become the trading bloc that really suits the UK. So Woolster, when do you expet Tibet to gain independence from the PRC? To the nearest century would do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 On 3 October 2017 at 1:11 PM, guzzi said: The boundaries of Spain can, of course, be redrawn, with the consent of Spain or by the bloody and painful process that Ireland had to follow. This is the answer to the question I asked. Either the minority must win the acquiesce of the majority (which in situations like this is never going to happen), or they must shed blood? And these are the only two 'right' options in your opinion? Where is the logic in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 5 hours ago, guzzi said: Ah, democratic values. The ultimate arbiter of fine decisions. If any given minority can simply call a vote within it's own ranks and claim legitimacy for breaking away from the nation as a whole, then we are headed to perdition. Why? Can you give any logical explanation as to why that would lead to anything worse than what we have now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Ok, for example, let's say some youths took over the townhall in Ramsey and ran a referendum of their ramseyites to form Ramseyland and not be part of the Isle of Man anymore. "BUT OUR REFERENDUM SAYS 90% OF RAMSEYITES WANT TO FORM RAMSEYLAND." That's basically the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 If you want to use an extreme hypothetical situation to illustrate a point that’s fine by me. Please provide the logical argument to support your position though, or it kind of doesn’t work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 just for the record it was the national police clamping down not the guardia...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Under the constitution it is the army that is charged with protecting the unity of Spain, so watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, P.K. said: Sure nothing is forever. As I have posted many times in the past even The Greater French Empire EU will have to either reform or fall. What a delicious irony it would be if Brexit was the catalyst to make it become the trading bloc that really suits the UK. So Woolster, when do you expet Tibet to gain independence from the PRC? To the nearest century would do.... Unless the EU becomes what it was touted as in the first place, a trading community, it will never reform. There are too many Euro state zealots at the top for that to happen. It would be good, but I cannot see it happening. Tibet? Independence? Wouldn't bet on that any time soon, but that wasn't what I was saying of course. By your reckoning, an independence referendum there should include a vote by all of the Chinese too, which is clearly ludicrous. Should the entire UK have voted in a referendum on Irish independence? Or Scottish for that matter. In the case of the Scots, they might even have got it through on the English vote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 the national vote should be- "should spain split up" rather than on one regions independence referendum, which would come later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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