P.K. Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 26 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said: Keep up at the back. Sorry. In my defence when woody2 started posting in Manglish I figured it was just some stupid kid so I put them on "ignore" because that's what it's there for..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Chinahand said: If 51% of a region vote to strip the citizenship of the other 49% and enforce secession on them you've got to be careful saying democracy is the right path to go down - the consent of the governed is a highly complex multifaceted issue which works both ways. That is what Brexit is effectively doing to remainers European citizenship. But ultimately, we'll moan a bit, and end up living with it. The connection to Spain for those wishing to remain will be stronger. But the impact can be mitigated with good will and a willingness to find a solution. Allowing Catalans to retain Spanish nationality would be one way. I'm sure the pro Spanish in Catalunya would be very grudgeful if UDI was declared in present circumstances - and they'd have good reason. That's why the desire to crush the referendum and not engage in debate by Madrid has been so toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 1 hour ago, the stinking enigma said: Keep up at the back. I'm surprised it needed explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Declan said: That is what Brexit is effectively doing to remainers European citizenship. But ultimately, we'll moan a bit, and end up living with it. The connection to Spain for those wishing to remain will be stronger. But the impact can be mitigated with good will and a willingness to find a solution. Allowing Catalans to retain Spanish nationality would be one way. I'm sure the pro Spanish in Catalunya would be very grudgeful if UDI was declared in present circumstances - and they'd have good reason. That's why the desire to crush the referendum and not engage in debate by Madrid has been so toxic. The Brexit vote is a good case in point. Take another view of democracy in action with the famous adrift in a boat illustration: Four people are shipwrecked and are left starving in a boat drifting around the ocean. Eventually things get so bad three of them vote to eat the fourth. Clearly that's not democracy in action but tyranny by the majority. Whenever there is a particularly nasty murder or whatever appalling rags like The Daily Wail tell how awful it is and raise the question about bringing back the death penalty. Every time it has been raised in parliament, with alleged public backing, it has been defeated. Don't get me started on Brexit! Then there's Boaty McBoatFace.... Essentially there are issues that just shouldn't be put to a public vote. Because the public can be unreasonably perverse. The alleged "referendum" in Catalonia was illegal and any result should simply be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 31 minutes ago, P.K. said: The alleged "referendum" in Catalonia was illegal and any result should simply be ignored. glad to see you acknowledge eu exit was above board..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 4 hours ago, P.K. said: The Brexit vote is a good case in point. Take another view of democracy in action with the famous adrift in a boat illustration: Four people are shipwrecked and are left starving in a boat drifting around the ocean. Eventually things get so bad three of them vote to eat the fourth. Clearly that's not democracy in action but tyranny by the majority. Whenever there is a particularly nasty murder or whatever appalling rags like The Daily Wail tell how awful it is and raise the question about bringing back the death penalty. Every time it has been raised in parliament, with alleged public backing, it has been defeated. Don't get me started on Brexit! Then there's Boaty McBoatFace.... Essentially there are issues that just shouldn't be put to a public vote. Because the public can be unreasonably perverse. The alleged "referendum" in Catalonia was illegal and any result should simply be ignored. Can you give a real world example of a free public vote on a question selected by ‘the public’, that ultimately in your opinion did the majority long term harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 23 minutes ago, maynragh said: Can you give a real world example of a free public vote on a question selected by ‘the public’, that ultimately in your opinion did the majority long term harm? Just follow the Brexit so-called negotiations.... Dear me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 3 hours ago, P.K. said: Just follow the Brexit so-called negotiations.... Dear me. So that's a no then. The entire Brexit debacle is the product of political (politicians) hubris from start to finish. Can you think of nothing else to illustrate your point that some things should simply not be accessible, because that sort of intimates that the political class are some how better placed to make decisions than us mere mortals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 4 hours ago, P.K. said: Just follow the Brexit so-called negotiations.... Dear me. (Sigh). Stop worrying about the confounded EU. Brexit is not a debacle. They just need to get on with it. The delay and attempted sabotage by the remain faction is the debacle. The EU itself is the debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 59 minutes ago, woolley said: (Sigh). Stop worrying about the confounded EU. Brexit is not a debacle. They just need to get on with it. The delay and attempted sabotage by the remain faction is the debacle. The EU itself is the debacle. I sort of agree. The point I was trying to get to was whether certain things should indeed be off limits to democracy - which relates to the issue in Catalonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 Just now, maynragh said: I sort of agree. The point I was trying to get to was whether certain things should indeed be off limits to democracy - which relates to the issue in Catalonia. It's a good point worthy of it's own thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 On 05/10/2017 at 0:00 AM, maynragh said: This is the answer to the question I asked. Either the minority must win the acquiesce of the majority (which in situations like this is never going to happen), or they must shed blood? And these are the only two 'right' options in your opinion? Where is the logic in that. I don't think it is helpful to think about generalities. In this instance, all of Spain would be disastrously affected by Catalan independence, so every Spaniard deserves a voice, not just the Catalans. The Catalan Government has completely ignored the interests of every Spaniard outside Catalunya. What should happen now is that central government ought to frame a question for the whole nation, describing options from full independence through to preservation of the status quo. My suggestion for a compromise might be independence but with a full fiiscal settlement between Catalunya and Spain, and a full customs union and single market between Catalunya and Spain pending negotiation of Catalan membership of the a EU. Catalunya cannot just walk away from it's obligations to the rest of Spain, either accrued ((in the form of public debt) or ongoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 On 05/10/2017 at 0:00 AM, maynragh said: This is the answer to the question I asked. Either the minority must win the acquiesce of the majority (which in situations like this is never going to happen), or they must shed blood? And these are the only two 'right' options in your opinion? Where is the logic in that. I don't think it is helpful to think about generalities. In this instance, all of Spain would be disastrously affected by Catalan independence, so every Spaniard deserves a voice, not just the Catalans. The Catalan Government has completely ignored the interests of every Spaniard outside Catalunya. What should happen now is that central government ought to frame a question for the whole nation, describing options from full independence through to preservation of the status quo. My suggestion for a compromise might be independence but with a full fiiscal settlement between Catalunya and Spain, and a full customs union and single market between Catalunya and Spain pending negotiation of Catalan membership of the a EU. Catalunya cannot just walk away from it's obligations to the rest of Spain, either accrued ((in the form of public debt) or ongoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 a few leftys and a fake poll and you have to negotiate a new constitution for a whole country? get real....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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