maynragh Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, guzzi said: I don't think it is helpful to think about generalities. In this instance, all of Spain would be disastrously affected by Catalan independence, so every Spaniard deserves a voice, not just the Catalans. The Catalan Government has completely ignored the interests of every Spaniard outside Catalunya. What should happen now is that central government ought to frame a question for the whole nation, describing options from full independence through to preservation of the status quo. My suggestion for a compromise might be independence but with a full fiiscal settlement between Catalunya and Spain, and a full customs union and single market between Catalunya and Spain pending negotiation of Catalan membership of the a EU. Catalunya cannot just walk away from it's obligations to the rest of Spain, either accrued ((in the form of public debt) or ongoing. That’s an interesting point. In essence you are outlining a sort of social obligation that overriddes self determination. The only problem with that I guess is that the current boundaries of social obligation are entirely arbitrary, so what is the argument for keeping them fixed in one place, and not in another - if not by self determination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 13 hours ago, maynragh said: So that's a no then. The entire Brexit debacle is the product of political (politicians) hubris from start to finish. Can you think of nothing else to illustrate your point that some things should simply not be accessible, because that sort of intimates that the political class are some how better placed to make decisions than us mere mortals. In my original post on the point I am making I mentioned the return of the death penalty. A classic example. Why you are pursuing this I can't imagine.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 2 hours ago, P.K. said: In my original post on the point I am making I mentioned the return of the death penalty. A classic example. Why you are pursuing this I can't imagine.....? Sorry, I’m not aware of any situation where the majority of the population voiced a call for the return of the death penalty. Can you post a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 58 minutes ago, maynragh said: Can you post a link? here it goes again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 PK is a bit out of date, but the public as polled have until recently been far more in favour of the noose than politicians: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 2 hours ago, maynragh said: Sorry, I’m not aware of any situation where the majority of the population voiced a call for the return of the death penalty. Can you post a link? Why should I? If you're interested research it yourself. If you're trying to do petty little point scoring to boost your pathetic little ego, which I suspect, you can still do it yourself! Either way FOAD.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Rather unnecessarily aggressive PK. Can’t people have some decorum. If you don’t want to enter a discussion then don’t but no need for playground insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Just now, Chinahand said: Rather unnecessarily aggressive PK. Can’t people have some decorum. If you don’t want to enter a discussion then don’t but no need for playground insults. You can fuck off as well! Just kidding Mr C! I think as I get older I've a lot less patience with time wasters. In fact the only good thing about getting old seems to be that the missus physically checks my flies are done up before I go out of a morning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 10 hours ago, maynragh said: That’s an interesting point. In essence you are outlining a sort of social obligation that overriddes self determination. The only problem with that I guess is that the current boundaries of social obligation are entirely arbitrary, so what is the argument for keeping them fixed in one place, and not in another - if not by self determination? The 'boundaries of social obligation' as you call them are those of the recognized state. The Kingdom of Spain. Defined geographically, historically, economically and by international law. There have been demonstrations in Spain today against the Catalan nationalists, with more planned tomorrow, even in Barcelona. They have been carrying placards with empty speech bubbles, symbolizing the voicelessness that I mentioned in an earlier post. For those that regard the Catalan nationalists as 'leftist', that is wrong. They are a political hitch-potch. In fact, many are classic right-wing nationalists, rather like the Northern League in Italy. The attitude there is fuck the rest of the country, we would be better off on our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 That's not to say they aren't right though. They may well be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 23 hours ago, P.K. said: Why should I? If you're interested research it yourself. If you're trying to do petty little point scoring to boost your pathetic little ego, which I suspect, you can still do it yourself! Either way FOAD.... I apologise for questioning your stated opinion. As Chinahand has pointed out, perhaps it would be an idea not to post it on an open forum if you don't want someone to highlight that it is baseless - just an idea. To be fair Chinahand has provided some evidence that social opinion could in theory have maintained the death penalty until quite recently, however as we all know an opinion poll is not the same thing as a vote. So, we have yet to establish why 'some things' should be off limits to open democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 19 hours ago, guzzi said: The 'boundaries of social obligation' as you call them are those of the recognized state. The Kingdom of Spain. Defined geographically, historically, economically and by international law. There have been demonstrations in Spain today against the Catalan nationalists, with more planned tomorrow, even in Barcelona. They have been carrying placards with empty speech bubbles, symbolizing the voicelessness that I mentioned in an earlier post. For those that regard the Catalan nationalists as 'leftist', that is wrong. They are a political hitch-potch. In fact, many are classic right-wing nationalists, rather like the Northern League in Italy. The attitude there is fuck the rest of the country, we would be better off on our own. As you have clarified, virtually no international boundaries have ever been defined by the self determination of the people who live within them. Effectively all have been created by war or the caprice of tiny groups of people acting entirely in their own self interest. So... Does that mean the only way to adjust them in the future is by those same methods? Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 55 minutes ago, maynragh said: I apologise for questioning your stated opinion. As Chinahand has pointed out, perhaps it would be an idea not to post it on an open forum if you don't want someone to highlight that it is baseless - just an idea. To be fair Chinahand has provided some evidence that social opinion could in theory have maintained the death penalty until quite recently, however as we all know an opinion poll is not the same thing as a vote. So, we have yet to establish why 'some things' should be off limits to open democracy. How are you getting on with your research? When I quoted the death penalty a few days ago it still remains a very good example. But then so does Brexit. The negotiations are so varied, detailed and with serious ramifications that it's becoming ever more clearer that folks didn't know what they were really voting for. A point made here: Brexit reminds us some things are too important to be decided by the people Story - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-result-latest-news-democracy-vote-consequences-a7105481.html Personally I think Mark Twain got it right back in the late 1800s - "IF VOTING MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, THEY WOULDN'T LET US DO IT......" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 On 10/7/2017 at 4:12 PM, P.K. said: You can fuck off as well! Just kidding Mr C! I think as I get older I've a lot less patience with time wasters. Says the card carrying LibDem Remainer. Just kidding, Mr PK. I know you tore it up............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 25 minutes ago, P.K. said: How are you getting on with your research? When I quoted the death penalty a few days ago it still remains a very good example. But then so does Brexit. The negotiations are so varied, detailed and with serious ramifications that it's becoming ever more clearer that folks didn't know what they were really voting for. A point made here: Brexit reminds us some things are too important to be decided by the people Story - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-result-latest-news-democracy-vote-consequences-a7105481.html Personally I think Mark Twain got it right back in the late 1800s - "IF VOTING MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, THEY WOULDN'T LET US DO IT......" Of course this presupposes that the columnists in the liberal rags have it right. If self-righteousness was synonymous with wisdom then no doubt we could all believe them with total confidence. But what if the people have actually made the right call? I happen to believe that they have and that the know-it-all establishment scribes are on the wrong side of history with this. Even if they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by killing Brexit (and by jingo, we'd never hear the last of it from the continent, would we?), the EU is unwieldy and already on the slide to oblivion. It's a supertanker taking on water. So it would be a pyrrhic victory and within a decade or less, we would be involved in the disaster that will be the final denouement of the empire with all of the upheaval and cost that will entail. As for Catalonia, I do hope that Spain does hold together in its entirety. Wonderful country that has a troubled recent history and the painful scars are buried not too far beneath the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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