woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 On 10/7/2017 at 8:25 AM, guzzi said: I don't think it is helpful to think about generalities. In this instance, all of Spain would be disastrously affected by Catalan independence, so every Spaniard deserves a voice, not just the Catalans. The Catalan Government has completely ignored the interests of every Spaniard outside Catalunya. What should happen now is that central government ought to frame a question for the whole nation, describing options from full independence through to preservation of the status quo. My suggestion for a compromise might be independence but with a full fiiscal settlement between Catalunya and Spain, and a full customs union and single market between Catalunya and Spain pending negotiation of Catalan membership of the a EU. Catalunya cannot just walk away from it's obligations to the rest of Spain, either accrued ((in the form of public debt) or ongoing. Playing devil's advocate here because, as I've declared several times, I hope for the unity of Spain and indeed of the UK. It can only be by consent though. How do you relate this to the Scotland question, for example? Should the whole of the UK have voted in the indyref? If that had been for the maintenance of the whole UK would Scotland be ensnared for ever without hope of parole even if the day dawned when it was 100% for independence north of the border? If so, should the Irish Republic never have existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 That massive Karl Marx fan Eddie Mair discusses the ramifications of Catalonia declaring UDI with some dead clever professor type. You may need to register but so what. It's from 36:03 onwards. Well worth a listen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjrb On the face of it the Catalans don't seem to have thought this through.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 18 minutes ago, woolley said: Of course this presupposes that the columnists in the liberal rags have it right. If self-righteousness was synonymous with wisdom then no doubt we could all believe them with total confidence. But what if the people have actually made the right call? I happen to believe that they have and that the know-it-all establishment scribes are on the wrong side of history with this. Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. Very true. But we are talking about the future here and it hasn't yet moved into hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, P.K. said: That massive Karl Marx fan Eddie Mair discusses the ramifications of Catalonia declaring UDI with some dead clever professor type. You may need to register but so what. It's from 36:03 onwards. Well worth a listen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjrb On the face of it the Catalans don't seem to have thought this through.... Mair. What an arse. £300k + a year of our money for THAT. You'd be better in his job, PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just now, woolley said: Mair. What an arse. £300k + a year of our money for THAT. You'd be better in his job, PK. Errrrr you should have been listening to what the prof had to say. After all, he's the SME, not Mair! Dear me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, P.K. said: Errrrr you should have been listening to what the prof had to say. After all, he's the SME, not Mair! Dear me.... Heard it when it was broadcast but thanks all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, woolley said: Heard it when it was broadcast but thanks all the same. Surely you don't listen to that nest of communist vipers that is the BBC? I had you down as a big fan of Fox News.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Would you two just get a room? Aren't you both arguing the same side here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, P.K. said: Surely you don't listen to that nest of communist vipers that is the BBC? I had you down as a big fan of Fox News.... I listen and laugh at the obvious exercises in conditioning. I take in news from sources all over the world. Actually, they don't have the balls to be communists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Tarne said: Would you two just get a room? Aren't you both arguing the same side here? Who says we're arguing? I know one could be forgiven for thinking it was compulsory here, but actually, it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, woolley said: Who says we're arguing? I knew it was flirting really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tarne said: I knew it was flirting really We HAD a room here till you came in all macho! Damn. PK. We're busted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, woolley said: We HAD a room here till you came in all macho! Damn. PK. We're busted! Speak for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 2 hours ago, P.K. said: How are you getting on with your research? When I quoted the death penalty a few days ago it still remains a very good example. But then so does Brexit. The negotiations are so varied, detailed and with serious ramifications that it's becoming ever more clearer that folks didn't know what they were really voting for. A point made here: Brexit reminds us some things are too important to be decided by the people Story - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-result-latest-news-democracy-vote-consequences-a7105481.html Personally I think Mark Twain got it right back in the late 1800s - "IF VOTING MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, THEY WOULDN'T LET US DO IT......" Make your mind up, it either doesn't make any difference or some things are so sacred we should never be allowed to vote on them, which is it? Brexit reminds us what happens when politicians screw up, that is it. Blaming the electorate because they didn't make the choice you think is wrong is a very long way from saying some things are so important they should only be the preserve of the political classes. As I've already pointed out, on matters of territorial configuration the historical method has been either through bloodshed or horse trading on behalf of the masters of society - I can only assume you think that those are the only two viable methods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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