P.K. Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, maynragh said: Make your mind up, it either doesn't make any difference or some things are so sacred we should never be allowed to vote on them, which is it? I think it's only fair to point out that you're a bit late in having a go at Mark Twain..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 Death is no defence on MF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 4 hours ago, P.K. said: I think it's only fair to point out that you're a bit late in having a go at Mark Twain..... I didn't. I agree with his position more than the one you contradicted it with. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 hours ago, maynragh said: Make your mind up, it either doesn't make any difference or some things are so sacred we should never be allowed to vote on them, which is it? Make my mind up about what? Just because I can remember a rather droll soundbite from the late 1800's that doesn't mean I necessarily think it pertains to modern politics. I'm quite sure the UK's Brexit vote will be diced and sliced by political researchers for probably the next decade or so. Because it's just so multi-faceted perhaps? However my own opinion is that in the end it was decided by very simplistic basic instincts. Interesting how history will judge it.... How is your own research coming along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 16 hours ago, P.K. said: That massive Karl Marx fan Eddie Mair discusses the ramifications of Catalonia declaring UDI with some dead clever professor type. You may need to register but so what. It's from 36:03 onwards. Well worth a listen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjrb On the face of it the Catalans don't seem to have thought this through.... You turned me off when I read the third and fourth words of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Lxxx said: You turned me off when I read the third and fourth words of your post. "Karl Marx?" Simply reiterating how appallingly left-wing the BBC is. After the counter demonstration yesterday it occurred to me that the so-called "referendum" was complete bollocks. If you were going to vote to stay part of Spain and after being told it was illegal would you go out and risk being lumped by the paramilitaries because of the "Secession" voters? I know I wouldn't..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, P.K. said: "Karl Marx?" Simply reiterating how appallingly left-wing the BBC is. After the counter demonstration yesterday it occurred to me that the so-called "referendum" was complete bollocks. If you were going to vote to stay part of Spain and after being told it was illegal would you go out and risk being lumped by the paramilitaries because of the "Secession" voters? I know I wouldn't..... Just shows how far the depth of feeling runs in that part of the world then if hundreds of thousands are prepared to risk a kicking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 That's kind of the point I was making. The use of state apparatus to crush the referendum without engaging in debate has strengthened the separatist hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Lxxx said: Just shows how far the depth of feeling runs in that part of the world then if hundreds of thousands are prepared to risk a kicking for it. A turnout of just 43% in an illegal referendum is not what I would call a ringing endorsement. Would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 and the still haven't counted the (fake) vote yet...... who's the returning officer? buster........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 But the separatists can claim that was due to intimidation by the state. They need to hold a referendum where there's no state obstructionism and both sides engage in the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: A turnout of just 43% in an illegal referendum is not what I would call a ringing endorsement. Would you? I'm not arguing that it is, I'm highlighting that 43% of the possible electorate in an area in which there are about 7.5m people is still not an insignificant number of people willing to risk a kicking for a shot at self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Declan said: That's kind of the point I was making. The use of state apparatus to crush the referendum without engaging in debate has strengthened the separatist hand. doubt it, they have been talking to them for years, they choose to go outside the law, they have zero support..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Declan said: But the separatists can claim that was due to intimidation by the state. They need to hold a referendum where there's no state obstructionism and both sides engage in the debate. the lefties started the intimidation..... no need for a vote.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 18 hours ago, maynragh said: As you have clarified, virtually no international boundaries have ever been defined by the self determination of the people who live within them. Effectively all have been created by war or the caprice of tiny groups of people acting entirely in their own self interest. So... Does that mean the only way to adjust them in the future is by those same methods? Is that right? We have arrived where we are via a long process of history, much of it bloody and violent. In an earlier post I explained my feelings about internationalism and specifically, about the EU. I quoted Winston Churchill's Zürich speech on the subject. The nation state itself has millennia of war and blood on its hands, and it is high time to move on from that concept to one where nationhood is defined culturally within an international entity that takes on many of the functions of the former nation states that are subsumed within it. Within that structure, Catalunya, The Basque Country, Scotland, Wales, etc. etc. can all have their own nationhood without detriment to the citizens or nations with the wider union. Catalan nationalism as we see it manifested in the illegal referendum and the actions of the devolved government is no different to any other separatist form of nationalism in that it would create yet another nation state, resembling all its historic predecessors across Europe. I view British nationalism (as manifested in the brexit vote) and Scots nationalism the same way, in that they all head in entirely the wrong direction, turning history back towards the bloody and violent past. There now needs to be a dialogue that will result in one or a small number of options that can be put before the Spanish people as a whole. If I had a vote, I would favour some form of settlement that preserved the Spanish nation and protected its interests, whilst it accommodated Catalunya as a cultural identity. A final thought. Self determination is a phrase that has a positive, warm, glow. But just what is self in the context of a nation? Clearly, not ethnicity, because as my DNA test reminded me, what I thought was 'white British' turned out to be mostly Irish, British and Scandinavian with a mix of other things added for seasoning. If it's values, language, loyalty, then it is culture. But how granular can it sensibly get? If Newham had a referendum, could they vote for a self governing Bengali community? For me, a clear demonstration that every attempt at secession has to be viewed on its merits by the governing state. I think there are many that would and could be seen as unwholesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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