woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 55 minutes ago, Lxxx said: I'm not arguing that it is, I'm highlighting that 43% of the possible electorate in an area in which there are about 7.5m people is still not an insignificant number of people willing to risk a kicking for a shot at self-determination. the vote hasn't been counted, you could print as many voting slips as you like, i bet you believe you are going to become a nigerian millionaire after sending your bank details off in a e-mail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 17 hours ago, woolley said: Playing devil's advocate here because, as I've declared several times, I hope for the unity of Spain and indeed of the UK. It can only be by consent though. How do you relate this to the Scotland question, for example? Should the whole of the UK have voted in the indyref? If that had been for the maintenance of the whole UK would Scotland be ensnared for ever without hope of parole even if the day dawned when it was 100% for independence north of the border? If so, should the Irish Republic never have existed? The wishes of the people of the UK were supposedly expressed through representative democracy & embodied in this agreement between the two governments. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313612/scottish_referendum_agreement.pdf But as far as I can see, neither Tory nor Liberal manifestos contained a promise to hold a referendum. In my view the holding of a referendum, at least, ought to be subject to democratic mandate across the U.K. As far is Ireland is concerned, history is history. My hope and expectation is that if the same circumstances were to arise today, devolution or full independence would be subject to similar processes to the case of Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, guzzi said: The wishes of the people of the UK were supposedly expressed through representative democracy & embodied in this agreement between the two governments. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313612/scottish_referendum_agreement.pdf But as far as I can see, neither Tory nor Liberal manifestos contained a promise to hold a referendum. In my view the holding of a referendum, at least, ought to be subject to democratic mandate across the U.K. As far is Ireland is concerned, history is history. My hope and expectation is that if the same circumstances were to arise today, devolution or full independence would be subject to similar processes to the case of Scotland. the talks/process was started under labour...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Declan said: But the separatists can claim that was due to intimidation by the state. They need to hold a referendum where there's no state obstructionism and both sides engage in the debate. Why? As I have already pointed out it would be strategically really really stupid to let them have independence. So while they don't have to let it happen, they won't. Because the strategic situation isn't about to change anytime soon. Unless you can move mountains of course.... It's almost as though Rajoy sat down and thought "Now, what would Franco do?" and acted accordingly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Why? Because there is strong Nationalist sentiment in the region. They had elected a pro-separatist government who were seeking to make progress on the issue. You can't continue to ignore expressions of the people's will like that without it coming to a head. So now the nationalists can point to a referendum that despite the obstructionism of Madrid returned a majority for separation. Admittedly that's a flawed result but the reason for that is down to Madrid's antics. The only way around it now, without violent enforcement and simmering resentment, is to hold and win a second referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Declan said: Why? Because there is strong Nationalist sentiment in the region. They had elected a pro-separatist government who were seeking to make progress on the issue. You can't continue to ignore expressions of the people's will like that without it coming to a head. So now the nationalists can point to a referendum that despite the obstructionism of Madrid returned a majority for separation. Admittedly that's a flawed result but the reason for that is down to Madrid's antics. The only way around it now, without violent enforcement and simmering resentment, is to hold and win a second referendum. what utter rubbish...... time to start cracking skulls...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 53 minutes ago, Declan said: Why? Because there is strong Nationalist sentiment in the region. They had elected a pro-separatist government who were seeking to make progress on the issue. You can't continue to ignore expressions of the people's will like that without it coming to a head. So now the nationalists can point to a referendum that despite the obstructionism of Madrid returned a majority for separation. Admittedly that's a flawed result but the reason for that is down to Madrid's antics. The only way around it now, without violent enforcement and simmering resentment, is to hold and win a second referendum. The key being it's a flawed result. Another way around it would be to show the srategic importance of Catalonia to the whole of Spain and point out, very reasonably of course, that if the local Catalonian administration didn't realise this then they shouldn't be trying to forge a path to independence! Surely they must have known it would never happen and people would get hurt finding that out. Ploticians in the role for self-aggrandisement only! Who would have thought it....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, P.K. said: The key being it's a flawed result. Another way around it would be to show the srategic importance of Catalonia to the whole of Spain and point out, very reasonably of course, that if the local Catalonian administration didn't realise this then they shouldn't be trying to forge a path to independence! Surely they must have known it would never happen and people would get hurt finding that out. Ploticians in the role for self-aggrandisement only! Who would have thought it....? But that would mean imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalunya. Or cracking skulls as Woody puts it. That's a morally bankrupt way to run a country and it's inherently unstable to keep a "strategically important" region in your country by force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Down Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 32 minutes ago, Declan said: But that would mean imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalunya. Or cracking skulls as Woody puts it. That's a morally bankrupt way to run a country and it's inherently unstable to keep a "strategically important" region in your country by force. Agreed Declan - what could possibly go wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Declan said: But that would mean imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalunya. Or cracking skulls as Woody puts it. That's a morally bankrupt way to run a country and it's inherently unstable to keep a "strategically important" region in your country by force. so give in to terrorists and ignore what the majority of spaniards want..... independence has very little support...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Declan said: But that would mean imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalunya. Or cracking skulls as Woody puts it. That's a morally bankrupt way to run a country and it's inherently unstable to keep a "strategically important" region in your country by force. Don't be silly. There's nothing "morally bankrupt" about it at all. The GOVERNMENT in Madrid are duty bound to do what is best for ALL of their citizens. You do understand that I trust? Franco didn't have a problem with it. In any event you're completely wrong that in means imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalonia. The reality is it means imposing the will of the whole of Spain on those Catalans who have been deluded into thinking that secession is somehow a good thing. And by the way they could be in the minority. And what good would it do them anyway? Think on that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 hours ago, woody2 said: so give in to terrorists and ignore what the majority of spaniards want..... independence has very little support...... Terrorists? If Independence has little support in Catalunya then all they need to do is have a referendum. 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Don't be silly. There's nothing "morally bankrupt" about it at all. The GOVERNMENT in Madrid are duty bound to do what is best for ALL of their citizens. You do understand that I trust? Franco didn't have a problem with it. In any event you're completely wrong that in means imposing the will of the whole of Spain on Catalonia. The reality is it means imposing the will of the whole of Spain on those Catalans who have been deluded into thinking that secession is somehow a good thing. And by the way they could be in the minority. And what good would it do them anyway? Think on that.... Franco wasn't a democrat and his methods were violent and held Spain back for years. All Madrid need to do is have a referendum, state their case, make a reasonable offer to The Catalans. They'll probably win. But if they don't win then negotiate a separation that includes free movement across the border - The Catalans will want EU membership. That's doing the best for all their citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 36 minutes ago, Declan said: Terrorists? If Independence has little support in Catalunya then all they need to do is have a referendum. Franco wasn't a democrat and his methods were violent and held Spain back for years. All Madrid need to do is have a referendum, state their case, make a reasonable offer to The Catalans. They'll probably win. But if they don't win then negotiate a separation that includes free movement across the border - The Catalans will want EU membership. That's doing the best for all their citizens. giving into lefty terrorists is no answer.... as for your other points, no they won't get eu membership and without the madrid handout they won't survive..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Declan said: Terrorists? If Independence has little support in Catalunya then all they need to do is have a referendum. Franco wasn't a democrat and his methods were violent and held Spain back for years. All Madrid need to do is have a referendum, state their case, make a reasonable offer to The Catalans. They'll probably win. But if they don't win then negotiate a separation that includes free movement across the border - The Catalans will want EU membership. That's doing the best for all their citizens. Firstly France has already declared that it will not recognise an independent Catalan. Clearly they don't want an unstable bunch of troublemakers sitting across their borders either. Secondly Madrid doesn't need to have a referendum or anything else. Time the Catalans, like you, had a reality check. I notice you have, unsurprisingly, ducked my question as to what good it would do them anyway? Never mind, hopefully you, and them, will wake up tomorrow in Reality Land....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 its the lefty approach.... commit actual bodily harm by your actions and get rewarded by recognition..... next it will be commit a murder get a free 2 week all expenses trip to any place you want instead of life at the hilton...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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