Declan Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 hour ago, woody2 said: holding an illegal referendum..... How can it be illegal to hold a referendum. A referendum can be unofficial or official. Binding or non-Binding. But illegal? 1 hour ago, quilp said: Not really, Declan. Those Catalonians seeking independence are a minority. They can't just decide. It's the underdog syndrome... Then hold an official referendum and prove it. 16 minutes ago, P.K. said: They couldn't join the EU and the ONLY country that went all the way from UDI to recognition by the UN in recent times was Bangladesh. But, it wouldn't be UDI, if it was result of a democratic referendum. The Spanish and Catalan Governments should hold one, state their cases and then work together to deliver the outcome decreed by the Catalan people. There's no reason why the Catalans, if they choose independence, couldn't join UN or EU other than those institutions acting in bloody minded and undemocratic way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 53 minutes ago, Declan said: How can it be illegal to hold a referendum. A referendum can be unofficial or official. Binding or non-Binding. But illegal? when a court decides, as in this case...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Declan, there are literally thousands of subnational groups which in their bubble think the People’s Judean Front command the public's support for independence- just in the UK you’ve the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Cornish, Yorkshiremen, North Berwick etc etc thinking they deserve a vote. Pandering to this lot is a recipe for division and chaos and bodies like the EU and UN definitely take the point of view that undoing the jigsaw of nation states is a bad idea. If there isn’t a significant injustice let the nationalist sleeping dog lie. It bites, it divide, it stirs up resentments - why are the Catalans getting away with it and not us Basques, or Qubequecois. Oh but let’s all have a nice referendum to sort it out doesn’t work you end up with neverendums and increased division. The basic principle that there should be an injustice to warrant a border change is pretty sensible and one I think I agree with pretty firmly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 What is the point of attempting to gain 'independence' if you promptly want to join the EU? I wondered this about Scotland and it seems the Catalans would want to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, TheTeapot said: What is the point of attempting to gain 'independence' if you promptly want to join the EU? I wondered this about Scotland and it seems the Catalans would want to do the same. spain would block it, as for the scotland its been the snp's undoing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Chinahand said: Declan, there are literally thousands of subnational groups which in their bubble think the People’s Judean Front command the public's support for independence- just in the UK you’ve the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Cornish, Yorkshiremen, North Berwick etc etc thinking they deserve a vote. I wouldn't have a problem if they held a referendum and wanted to go it alone. Heck, I'd support Ramsey if it went solo, then they can fix their own damn pier! But realistically, there needs to be a significant level of support before you even have a referendum. In Scotland the Scottish National Party had been elected and formed the government on a nationalist platform. In Wales there is nowhere near that level of support for Plaid Cymru or independence. Cornwall doesn't even reach that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 Where does it end? Hold a referendum around the table and declare your house independent from the Isle of Man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 has he wimped out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 "We're suspending the declaration of independence for a few weeks, because we want a reasonable dialogue, a mediation with the Spanish state." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 People would have died tonight if he had announced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said: People would have died tonight if he had announced it. hopefully him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilligaf Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Chinahand said: Declan, there are literally thousands of subnational groups which in their bubble think the People’s Judean Front command the public's support for independence- just in the UK you’ve the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Cornish, Yorkshiremen, North Berwick etc etc thinking they deserve a vote. Pandering to this lot is a recipe for division and chaos and bodies like the EU and UN definitely take the point of view that undoing the jigsaw of nation states is a bad idea. If there isn’t a significant injustice let the nationalist sleeping dog lie. It bites, it divide, it stirs up resentments - why are the Catalans getting away with it and not us Basques, or Qubequecois. Oh but let’s all have a nice referendum to sort it out doesn’t work you end up with neverendums and increased division. The basic principle that there should be an injustice to warrant a border change is pretty sensible and one I think I agree with pretty firmly. How many more times ? They are the People's Front of Judea ! Sorry, carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 21 hours ago, Chinahand said: The basic principle that there should be an injustice to warrant a border change is pretty sensible and one I think I agree with pretty firmly. The question I have asked a number of times, and nobody has yet given a straight answer to, is this... is violence / the self interested use of executive power the only ‘right’ way to change an international border or define a nation? It would seem a lot of people think so. Is that what you mean by “an injustice”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 On 09/10/2017 at 10:43 AM, guzzi said: We have arrived where we are via a long process of history, much of it bloody and violent. In an earlier post I explained my feelings about internationalism and specifically, about the EU. I quoted Winston Churchill's Zürich speech on the subject. The nation state itself has millennia of war and blood on its hands, and it is high time to move on from that concept to one where nationhood is defined culturally within an international entity that takes on many of the functions of the former nation states that are subsumed within it. Within that structure, Catalunya, The Basque Country, Scotland, Wales, etc. etc. can all have their own nationhood without detriment to the citizens or nations with the wider union. Catalan nationalism as we see it manifested in the illegal referendum and the actions of the devolved government is no different to any other separatist form of nationalism in that it would create yet another nation state, resembling all its historic predecessors across Europe. I view British nationalism (as manifested in the brexit vote) and Scots nationalism the same way, in that they all head in entirely the wrong direction, turning history back towards the bloody and violent past. There now needs to be a dialogue that will result in one or a small number of options that can be put before the Spanish people as a whole. If I had a vote, I would favour some form of settlement that preserved the Spanish nation and protected its interests, whilst it accommodated Catalunya as a cultural identity. A final thought. Self determination is a phrase that has a positive, warm, glow. But just what is self in the context of a nation? Clearly, not ethnicity, because as my DNA test reminded me, what I thought was 'white British' turned out to be mostly Irish, British and Scandinavian with a mix of other things added for seasoning. If it's values, language, loyalty, then it is culture. But how granular can it sensibly get? If Newham had a referendum, could they vote for a self governing Bengali community? For me, a clear demonstration that every attempt at secession has to be viewed on its merits by the governing state. I think there are many that would and could be seen as unwholesome. Case in point... I would agree on the point of nationhood, I would agree on the value of dialogue. I would point out that it has never happened other than as decided by the self interest of the ruling classes or by violence - so is that the only way? As an aside, I’ve seen some of these videos where people are told what percentage of their DNA comes from where. They’re highly amusing - seeing as every human on the planet is 100% African in origin. It does raise the intresting point on culture though, which has been shown to be highly plastic and adaptable - an essential part of ‘being human’. Your point on the decision of the governing state effectively confirms that you believe there is a natural ruling class - and that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 27 minutes ago, maynragh said: Case in point... I would agree on the point of nationhood, I would agree on the value of dialogue. I would point out that it has never happened other than as decided by the self interest of the ruling classes or by violence - so is that the only way? As an aside, I’ve seen some of these videos where people are told what percentage of their DNA comes from where. They’re highly amusing - seeing as every human on the planet is 100% African in origin. It does raise the intresting point on culture though, which has been shown to be highly plastic and adaptable - an essential part of ‘being human’. Your point on the decision of the governing state effectively confirms that you believe there is a natural ruling class - and that is a good thing. theory not fact..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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