Catalonia

[guzzi]

Wishful thinking, I suspect. Even in the event of Catalan independence, the EU's 'empire' isn't collapsing. There's every chance that an independent Catalunya would seek membership.

There's no doubt that Spain will suffer hugely from the loss of Catalunya from its economy. The EU's attitude if that happens is likely to be as supportive as possible, in my opinion, although clearly there would be a huge negotiation to be had on how the EU would treat Spain and Catalunya.

Exactly how do you think the EU has controlled Spain's policy in respect of Catalunya? I don't think it has, anymore than it sought to control the UKs policy on Scottish independence.

[Lxxx]

2 hours ago, guzzi said:

Wishful thinking, I suspect. Even in the event of Catalan independence, the EU's 'empire' isn't collapsing. There's every chance that an independent Catalunya would seek membership.

There's no doubt that Spain will suffer hugely from the loss of Catalunya from its economy. The EU's attitude if that happens is likely to be as supportive as possible, in my opinion, although clearly there would be a huge negotiation to be had on how the EU would treat Spain and Catalunya.

Exactly how do you think the EU has controlled Spain's policy in respect of Catalunya? I don't think it has, anymore than it sought to control the UKs policy on Scottish independence.

As I said, the EU is complicit in Spain's actions by it's own inaction. The European Convention on Human Rights include the dignity to assemble and the freedom of thought. Article 17 provides that no-one may use the rights guaranteed by the convention to seek the abolition or limitation of rights guaranteed in the convention. The UK let Scottish citizens exercise these rights but Spain has decreed that it's national security over-rides them.

With Brexit still ongoing, the refugee crisis, the pensions crisis, various municipalities on the brink of insolvency, deflation, the banking crisis and the rise of the far right I don't think Brussels can afford another shock to it's empire. Which is collapsing.

[guzzi]

That is not quite how it is. It's the Spanish constitutional court that has ruled the referendum illegal.  The citizens affected may have recourse to the courts in Spain, and ultimately to the European Court of Human Rights if they consider their rights have been negated. Nothing to do with the EU, which does not have any right to act in an internal Spanish issue. 

[quilp]

Good old Google makes a huge contribution to free-speech by deleting a phone app being used to direct voters to polling station's from its store.

[maynragh]

It certainly shows a willingness by such multinationals to take sides in political situations - so much for net neutrality I guess. I wonder if such actions could ultimately be their undoing or lead to some sort of backlash. Also shows the political potential if it must be shut down. I wonder if we will see the use of mesh networks as in Hong Kong.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26285-hong-kong-protesters-use-a-mesh-network-to-organise/

[Tibet]

2 minutes ago, maynragh said:

It certainly shows a willingness by such multinationals to take sides in political situations - so much for net neutrality I guess. I wonder if such actions could ultimately be their undoing or lead to some sort of backlash. Also shows the political potential if it must be shut down. I wonder if we will see the use of mesh networks as in Hong Kong.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26285-hong-kong-protesters-use-a-mesh-network-to-organise/

Will certainly keep that app in mind when it does inevitably come to that.

[woody2]

good to see the guardia civil upholding the law.....

[Lxxx]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 3:52 PM, guzzi said:

That is not quite how it is. It's the Spanish constitutional court that has ruled the referendum illegal.  The citizens affected may have recourse to the courts in Spain, and ultimately to the European Court of Human Rights if they consider their rights have been negated. Nothing to do with the EU, which does not have any right to act in an internal Spanish issue. 

The Mayor of Barcelona on Thursday called for a mediation mission by the EU Commission to defuse the crisis. A member of the Catalan government has accused the EU of supporting the brutal oppression by it's inaction, either politically or verbally. 

By continuously batting away the crisis onto the Spanish constitutional court and not denouncing the fascist Spanish government and it's brutality in squashing a referendum, that should never have been made illegal, it's sending a message to other separatist movements that it will stand back and watch them crushed too.

This is what happens when you have an unelected body trying to create an undemocratic empire, they can't defend Catalonia without undermining their own political power. 

[Declan]

1 hour ago, woody2 said:

good to see the guardia civil upholding the law.....

Attacking people expressing opinion through the ballot box. 

[pongo]

1 hour ago, Lxxx said:

This is what happens when you have an unelected body trying to create an undemocratic empire, they can't defend Catalonia without undermining their own political power. 

It's not the business of the EU to be interfering in the internal politics of any member state. And certainly not in support of a cynical right wing coup which has co-opted a folksy regionalism.

[quilp]

Recent poll shows (as of the BBC) only 42% Catalonian's agree with the vote. Most of their (BBC) interviews were of young Catalonian's saying they wanted to remain as Spanish. 

Catatonia in Catalonia... 

[Tarne]

I'm just glad people got off their arse and are protesting. I like protests, they shake things up. We'll see how it pans out

[woody2]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

Attacking people expressing opinion through the ballot box. 

if a copper ask you to move and you don't, don't be surprised if you get 10cc......

[woody2]

no bulls yet.....

[Declan]

7 hours ago, woody2 said:

if a copper ask you to move and you don't, don't be surprised if you get 10cc......

Coppers shouldn't be asking them to move on. All they're doing is expressing an opinion in an indicative referendum. 

The anti-independence people could have  made a case for remaining in Spain. If most Catalans are against the independence turn up, vote, and win.  Even if the vote went against them there would have been a legitimate challenge due to low turnout. 

But using the police to violently stop people voting?