Tarne Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Has this not resolved itself yet? It's disappeared from the news so I figure nothing is happening over there just a big lemon party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Both sides have realised the enormity of what has happened and that their respective attitudes in the run up to the referendum was not conducive. They are talking about talks. ive kept out of this as I've friends on both sides, but some of the stuff posted here is so far from the mark, or twisted, or plain false, I think I should comment. The separists are neither left wing or revolutionaries. As much support comes from older rural conservative Catalans as from urban intellectual left wing elites. Of over 750 local authorities more than 600 belong to the association for Catalan independence. This is villages to medium towns to cities. its the urban middle class in Barcelona which is anti, mainly. This isn't new, it's been bubbling for years. There was a previous referendum and Rajoy arranged to prosecute Arturo Mas, the then Catalan leader.The trial has been ongoing for 3 years. Not a good move. The Spanish constitution post Franco seems to no longer be fit for purpose. It imposes financial burdens on Catalonia and the Basques and pays too little back. It gives a veto to all the other communities over Catalan self determination. That is a running sore, as is the financial situation. Catalonia had a long history as a maritime empire, with overseas colonies and it occupied a huge part of south eastern France, over to Carcassone and Perpignan, as well as the Balearics, and all the way to Valencia and Zaragoza. They think of themselves as a separate country, culture, language. It was Catalonia's Ferdinand that merged in personal union with Isabella's Castile to form proto Spain. Aragon was a junior partner in the Catalan/Aragonesque axis, but they were kings of Aragon and only Dukes of Barcelona. Isabella could marry a king, not a duke. in a Europe of the Regions an independent Catalonia should succeed. It has industry, income, good communications. Spain doesn't like it because Basques will be next. Lose both and Spain is crippled. France doesn't like it because it will encourage Bretons, Normans, and those from the Cerdagne ( French Catalonia) to seek autonomy. An independent Catalonia would be the 6th or 7th largest EU economy and language group. It's worth recalling that Catalan was suppressed for 40 years. It is now universal, the medium of instruction, government and courts, in fact the main second language taught in School is English, Castilian comes 2nd. If there is a disconnect between constitutions and political systems and the legitimate desire of a people the system will fail. Thats happened in Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, France in 1956 and 1968, Eastern Europe, UK with devolution and Brexit. There are many possible solutions, but ignoring the problem doesnt make it go away. It may make the inevitable tectonic shift much more violent eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 But the rule of law is essential to any democracy. Only the National Government can amend the constitution. Sure times change and the constitution may not suit Catalan and the Basque Region but it suits everyone else. My thinking is the mistake was giving them too much autonomy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 7 minutes ago, P.K. said: But the rule of law is essential to any democracy. Only the National Government can amend the constitution. Sure times change and the constitution may not suit Catalan and the Basque Region but it suits everyone else. My thinking is the mistake was giving them too much autonomy.... Mmmm. That depends on who controls the courts. Law isn't an abstract absolute. The communist regimes were supported by the rule of law, whatever it means. constitutions, laws and courts can be wrong, become outdated, be intransigent. When enough people not only lose respect for them, but are willing to take extra parliamentary and extra judicial action then changes frequently happen. The sign of a civilised society is whether the leaders manage change peacefully or not. The amount of autonomy given post Franco was commensurate with aspirations, resentment of Franco era oppression and proportionate so as to ensure the unity of Spain and avoid a Civil War repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Communist regimes are not democratic. If a measure of a civilised society is managing change peacefully then Puigdemont and his chancers have failed miserably. The Guardia are there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 All democratic forms have democratic deficits. How you define what is democratic and what is not is problematic. Western Democracy is profoundly undemocrstic from outside. From inside it's the best. Likewise Communism, totalitarianism etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Taking Tynwald as an example, with it's unelected yet influential upper chamber, you are absolutely spot on that some so-called "democracies" have serious deficiencies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 2 hours ago, John Wright said: The Spanish constitution post Franco seems to no longer be fit for purpose. It imposes financial burdens on Catalonia and the Basques and pays too little back. It gives a veto to all the other communities over Catalan self determination. That is a running sore, as is the financial situation. they get back more than they have put in according to the latest figures and have done for many years..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 1 hour ago, John Wright said: Mmmm. That depends on who controls the courts. Law isn't an abstract absolute. The communist regimes were supported by the rule of law, whatever it means. constitutions, laws and courts can be wrong, become outdated, be intransigent. When enough people not only lose respect for them, but are willing to take extra parliamentary and extra judicial action then changes frequently happen. The sign of a civilised society is whether the leaders manage change peacefully or not. The amount of autonomy given post Franco was commensurate with aspirations, resentment of Franco era oppression and proportionate so as to ensure the unity of Spain and avoid a Civil War repeat. puigdemont has failed then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 25 minutes ago, woody2 said: puigdemont has failed then.... No Rajoy has failed. He sent in the troops/Guardia Civil, it was otherwise peaceful. Woody2, how is it through your right wing reactionary political view you can take any given set of facts, not opinions, and misinterpret them and present them as the diametric opposite. You are Katie Hopkins and I claim my £5. Actually I think Rajoy and Puigdemont, and before him Arturo Mas, mishandled things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Errrr I've already pointed out that the referendum was illegal. The Guardia were sent in to deal with criminality. Just like they should do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, P.K. said: Errrr I've already pointed out that the referendum was illegal. The Guardia were sent in to deal with criminality. Just like they should do.... It was illegal because of oppressive inflexible provisions in a constitution that is increasingly unfit for purpose. PK, think carefully what you suggest. Why was it necessary to send in troops and guards to crush a peaceful demonstration of freedom of speech? It wasn't illegality that Rajoy was frightened of. If it was illegal the result meant nothing legally. Rajoy is frightened of ideas, words, aspirations, nothing more or less. And as for Woody2, and his suggestion that Catalonia receives more than it gives to Madrid, why would Rajoy want to keep a region, akin to Northern Ireland in the UK, that costs Spain money? Just not credible. i commend this article to show the true position and why it causes such discontent, especially compared to the Basques. 3 years ago a re balancing for Catalonia along Basque lines would have sufficed. That time is past. A federal Spain may have worked but 1st October scuppered that. Rajoy is just another talentless May, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 you don't expect the police to uphold a courts decision? the figures are posted on this thread if you bothered to read it, they take more than they pay.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 The police have no role in upholding or enforcing civil court decisions. ive read your alt right financial fairy stories on this topic. They are simply incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 6 minutes ago, John Wright said: The police have no role in upholding or enforcing civil court decisions. ive read your alt right financial fairy stories on this topic. They are simply incorrect. taken from the union run lefty bbc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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