John Wright Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 15/10/2017 at 4:02 PM, quilp said: Isn't staying as part of Spain the desire of the majority of Catalonian's? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, John Wright said: No How can you tell without a legal referendum? Otherwise it's just anecdotal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, John Wright said: No only if you ignore the opinion polls...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 direct rule...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, woody2 said: direct rule...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086 #bbcfakenews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 day release for you again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 I suspect this isn't going to end well for all concerned. Frankly how Puigdemont and his cronies can claim they have a mandate from an illegal referendum that had a low turnout of just 43% is just beyond all reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Because, except for the Barcelona middle class, who are mainly remainers, 600+ out of 750 local authorities, from small villages to large towns are members of the organisation for Catalan independence. That means, at local level, there is overwhelming support. doesnt matter what the polls say, or what turnout was. Turnout was low because Madrid prevented it. Can't be used as an excuse to ignore. The polls, I suspect, are because they are skewed to Barcelona. Legality is a blind issue, irrelevant. If the Catalans want to go, they will. Just like the disintegration of Yugoslavia, with or without central and other regions consent. The question now is, will it be a peaceful divorce or a bloody war. Unless they talk it's going to be nasty, not now, but in 2, 3, 5 years. Madrid has acted with a heavy hand, for too long. This has been boiling for 10 years, there was another referendum 3 years ago, there have been mass demonstrations, human chains all across the Generalitat from North to south and east to west, with millions of participants, young and old, left and right. catalans have ended up with their current leader because the more moderate, Arturo Mas, pro more devolution, with independence as last resort was arrested and placed on political trial for sedition. Think what would happen in Scotland if Sturgeon was arrested and tried for seeking independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, John Wright said: Legality is a blind issue, irrelevant. Precisely. I would like to say I am surprised that some people have failed to grasp that 'legality' is a cultural construct - an idea created by groups of humans, maintained by groups of humans and which will be changed by groups of humans, as history has shown over and over again. Legality is not a universal absolute, binding of groups is not an absolute - never has been, never will be. Realpolitik will always have the final say, and unfortunately that too is open to manipulation by leaders. The real tragedy here is that logically there is no reason things could not change without bloodshed - nobody has yet given a logical explanation as to why not. However the systems created by those who would lead us do not care about logic - the logic of human well-being for the majority that is, not their own self interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 51 minutes ago, John Wright said: Because, except for the Barcelona middle class, who are mainly remainers, 600+ out of 750 local authorities, from small villages to large towns are members of the organisation for Catalan independence. That means, at local level, there is overwhelming support. doesnt matter what the polls say, or what turnout was. Turnout was low because Madrid prevented it. Can't be used as an excuse to ignore. The polls, I suspect, are because they are skewed to Barcelona. Legality is a blind issue, irrelevant. If the Catalans want to go, they will. Just like the disintegration of Yugoslavia, with or without central and other regions consent. The question now is, will it be a peaceful divorce or a bloody war. Unless they talk it's going to be nasty, not now, but in 2, 3, 5 years. Madrid has acted with a heavy hand, for too long. This has been boiling for 10 years, there was another referendum 3 years ago, there have been mass demonstrations, human chains all across the Generalitat from North to south and east to west, with millions of participants, young and old, left and right. catalans have ended up with their current leader because the more moderate, Arturo Mas, pro more devolution, with independence as last resort was arrested and placed on political trial for sedition. Think what would happen in Scotland if Sturgeon was arrested and tried for seeking independence? sod all, she has got a minus 4 rating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Yes, but arrest and try her and her approval rating would go through the roof and independence would be a foregone conclusion at the next referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Ah just throw in some potential kiddy fiddling or money laundering allegations and it covers it right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 hour ago, John Wright said: Because, except for the Barcelona middle class, who are mainly remainers, 600+ out of 750 local authorities, from small villages to large towns are members of the organisation for Catalan independence. That means, at local level, there is overwhelming support. doesnt matter what the polls say, or what turnout was. Turnout was low because Madrid prevented it. Can't be used as an excuse to ignore. The polls, I suspect, are because they are skewed to Barcelona. Legality is a blind issue, irrelevant. If the Catalans want to go, they will. Just like the disintegration of Yugoslavia, with or without central and other regions consent. The question now is, will it be a peaceful divorce or a bloody war. Unless they talk it's going to be nasty, not now, but in 2, 3, 5 years. Madrid has acted with a heavy hand, for too long. This has been boiling for 10 years, there was another referendum 3 years ago, there have been mass demonstrations, human chains all across the Generalitat from North to south and east to west, with millions of participants, young and old, left and right. All true I am sure. But the fact remains the referendum went against the Spanish Constitution, that 90% of Catalans voted for, and that Constitution can only be amended by Madrid. The rule of law is vital to a democracy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, P.K. said: But the fact remains the referendum went against the Spanish Constitution, that 90% of Catalans voted for, and that Constitution can only be amended by Madrid. The rule of law is vital to a democracy.... Only time will tell if only Madrid can amend. History would certainly seem to indicate those who think they hold absolute power are often wrong, and a lot of people die as a result. The rule of law is only maintained by democracy - i.e. it is subordinate to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 26 minutes ago, P.K. said: All true I am sure. But the fact remains the referendum went against the Spanish Constitution, that 90% of Catalans voted for, and that Constitution can only be amended by Madrid. The rule of law is vital to a democracy.... It feels wrong that the result of a referendum 40 years ago could override the will of the present generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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