woody2 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 50 minutes ago, John Wright said: Yes, but arrest and try her and her approval rating would go through the roof and independence would be a foregone conclusion at the next referendum. independence is a foregone conclusion in the future anyway..... many in the snp don't support her view of joining the eu, the snp campaigned to stay in purely to have another vote, it failed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 catalonian's like most of spain object to the mass immigration caused by eu membership making youth unemployment a major concern. it was unheard of a few years ago.... its strange then that some catalonian's wish to rejoin the eu.... anyone else noted that the posters who object to the uk getting its independence from the eu, on this thread support catalonian's having independence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 49 minutes ago, P.K. said: All true I am sure. But the fact remains the referendum went against the Spanish Constitution, that 90% of Catalans voted for, and that Constitution can only be amended by Madrid. The rule of law is vital to a democracy.... You keep saying this PK, but human affairs do not always follow nice, neat rules according to what is convenient to the established order. If you keep the lid on something for long enough eventually the pressure will cause a blow out that brooks no denial, democratic or otherwise. Eventually they will stick two fingers up to Madrid and refuse to live under Spanish rule, so what point is there in declaring it is against the Spanish constitution if they are hell bent on seceding from Spain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 20 minutes ago, Declan said: It feels wrong that the result of a referendum 40 years ago could override the will of the present generation. At least they had proper referendum unlike the shambles that Puigdemont and the rest of his grubby little opportunists claim gives them a mandate. Sure, times change though. What has not changed is that there is no way Madrid is going to let a non-EU indepedent Catalonia sit across 50% of their comms with their biggest trading partner. Calling it "strategically unsound" would be the understatement of the decade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 3 hours ago, John Wright said: Madrid has acted with a heavy hand, for too long. Agree with most of what you say in this post but as for the above, it is the only way Spain knows. There is no hand but a heavy one and it goes back to Franco's time. Not a lot has changed in this respect. There is no tradition of tolerance for anything like the events in Catalonia. It needs statesmen to even have a chance of a settlement and I don't see any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, woolley said: You keep saying this PK, but human affairs do not always follow nice, neat rules according to what is convenient to the established order. If you keep the lid on something for long enough eventually the pressure will cause a blow out that brooks no denial, democratic or otherwise. Eventually they will stick two fingers up to Madrid and refuse to live under Spanish rule, so what point is there in declaring it is against the Spanish constitution if they are hell bent on seceding from Spain? Absolutely agree. The country has already torn itself apart once this century and heavy-handed Guardia will have echoes of Franco. However Puigdemont et al are starting to sound like Farage, Gove and Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 the guardia haven't gone in yet, to busy fighting fires in other parts of spain...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 49 minutes ago, P.K. said: Absolutely agree. The country has already torn itself apart once this century and heavy-handed Guardia will have echoes of Franco. However Puigdemont et al are starting to sound like Farage, Gove and Johnson. I think you are confusing Puigdemont with Rajoy in that analogy. What mandate does Rajoy have? In practical terms ? He leads a minority government with only 28% seats in the Cortes General. He gets by with bribing smaller, mainly regional, parties. His ability to bribe, and the funds that go to those communities, would be drastically reduced. Of course they don't want to see Catalonia go. ironically the same is true of Euskadi. They want neither a constitutional change or settlement or independence as they get back all they currently pay in. That would stop. The 1978 constitution was based on the political, social and economic imperatives of 1978 post Franco Spain. Those have changed. Catalonia is stronger economically, much stronger, bigger population wise and has regained its social and cultural identity suppressed for so long by Franco. Dont forget, Catalonia didn't become part of a unified Spain until 1812, and kept its own Corts Catalan ( Parliament ) until the Republic in 1929. They fought against Franco and he hated them and suppressed their language and culture for 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 3 hours ago, John Wright said: I think you are confusing Puigdemont with Rajoy in that analogy. Those have changed. Catalonia is stronger economically, much stronger, bigger population wise and has regained its social and cultural identity suppressed for so long by Franco. Catalonia is stronger economically because it has borrowed €billions from the rest of Spain. So no moralising please. Like the three stooges they are also pushing an economic agenda which is also a smoke and mirrors job. The EU heavyweights have already stated an independent Catalan will not get membership. So if they crash out of Spain their currency will be invalid - just like their passports. WTO rules most like. Companies are already preparing to up sticks and leave. Their flights could be grounded etc etc etc. Nationalistic fervour can be completely blinding, no doubt about that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 bye bye puigdemont...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinkle Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Fucking traitors galore . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 "It's treason then" Man, what a mess in Spain. Hopefully it'll all blow over for another few years and won't break out into lots of deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 puigdemont only has a job because of the constitution come friday they remove his power and stop his wages.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 can someone buy puigdemont a backbone...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41760832 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 He, and the independence movement are playing the long game, Madrid goes in and independence is a foregone, and might involve bloodshed, talks may start a peaceful move. That isn't lack of backbone, it's astute politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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