maynragh Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 You think it's irrelevant because you do not wish to consider the logical basis for your position. Entirely understandable. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, maynragh said: You think it's irrelevant because you do not wish to consider the logical basis for your position. Entirely understandable. Thanks for your input. nope..... i see the european commission has just told them to get stuffed for holding an illegal vote against spains constitution..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 3 hours ago, guzzi said: Having said that, the argument that no one region should have the right to vote for independence and, effectively, for the dissolution of a democratic country against the wishes of the wider population is a strong one for me. I felt exactly the same way about Scottish independence. I think that is a bizarre way of looking at it. Like you can't divorce unless your partner agrees to it. Or having to get the agreement of all Europe for Brexit to happen. Peoples are entitled to set their own destiny, to run their own affairs. Throughout history the borders in Europe have moved and countries have been independent that now aren't. Why are the current boundaries set in stone? When the Czech Republic and Slovakia were allowed to split, when the Hapsburg Empire was dismantled but suddenly the boundaries of Spain can't be redrawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Completely agree Declan - country borders are just what people think they are. Hell, just recently Montenegro left Serbia and became it's own country, and Kosovo is well on its way too. You've already got a country (Andorra) in between Spain and France that isn't in the EU anyway, but still the benefits - no reason Catalonia couldn't do the same initially whilst the EU processes the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, woody2 said: nope..... I see I'm dealing with a master of debating. Obviously you must be correct with that sort of powerful argument. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Article 7 of the EU treaty states that any member state who uses violence against their citizens will be suspended from EU membership. Does any applicable violence operate on a threshold system then? Or only if it isn't in connection with a referendum that the EU doesn't want to interfere in? As you can see I am anti-EU and pro-Catalonia independence so admittedly my views are a little biased but as others have stated European borders have changed with the wind over the past century, why not this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Lxxx said: Article 7 of the EU treaty states that any member state who uses violence against their citizens will be suspended from EU membership. Does any applicable violence operate on a threshold system then? Or only if it isn't in connection with a referendum that the EU doesn't want to interfere in? As you can see I am anti-EU and pro-Catalonia independence so admittedly my views are a little biased but as others have stated European borders have changed with the wind over the past century, why not this time? it was reasonable force not violence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 hours ago, maynragh said: I see I'm dealing with a master of debating. Obviously you must be correct with that sort of powerful argument. Well done. correct..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 There'll be blood spilled here. The Spanish get worked up to a frantic tiz over Gibraltar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 does this mean the spanish gp moves....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 hours ago, woody2 said: it was reasonable force not violence..... The UN don't seem to think so... http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=57785#.WdKL_4XTXYU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Declan said: I think that is a bizarre way of looking at it. Like you can't divorce unless your partner agrees to it. Everything I am reading about this implies that this is about money and business interests cynically and selfishly co-opting a folksy nationalism. A bit like the IOM in the 80s eh! And there is almost zero serious support for Catalan nationalism on the French side FWIW. Except in the minds of the sort of people who probably imagine that Cornwall is an occupied zone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 If that were really the case why would they waste so much effort and take such risks to try and crush it? Just let it happen and laugh it off when the results come in - if your assessment is correct, or even completely ignore it if they did vote for independence. The actions of the state show there's a lot more at stake here than you've given credit to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 11 hours ago, pongo said: Everything I am reading about this implies that this is about money and business interests cynically and selfishly co-opting a folksy nationalism. A bit like the IOM in the 80s eh! And there is almost zero serious support for Catalan nationalism on the French side FWIW. Except in the minds of the sort of people who probably imagine that Cornwall is an occupied zone! Then the Spanish government and those who want to stay should make the case democratically. Don't bring the full weight of the state - the courts and police - into crushing a referendum. At the moment I can understand Catalans wanting rid of such a state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Surely democracy should never be the dictatorship / tyranny of the majority? When Quebec voted for secession the "NO" camp won with 50.58% of the vote. That leaves almost the same amount of folks not getting what they want. Madrid have handled it badly, no question. But why do they think a referendum should be exclusively Catalonia? If it's about the breakup of Spain then surely every Spaniard should have a vote on it...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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