sausage Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Im surprised there has been no comment at all from Cerys Matthews about all this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 55 minutes ago, woolley said: The principle is fundamentally flawed. You are saying the bigger the country, the less chance there is of a region or state seceding from it. So the Irish Republic could never have left the UK, for example. If, by some miracle, Tibet was to have a vote on independence, should over a billion Chinese vote too? So many examples. No. I'm saying that strategically it's a bad move for all the rest of the Spanish. As Madrid has to be mindful for the whole population their actions, although heavy handed, seem to me to be right. The complaints against The Guardia are odd as they were doing the job they are there for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 19 hours ago, woody2 said: it was reasonable force not violence..... So if my missus decides to leave me and starts to stomp off to see her advocate and I give her a kicking and drag her and her bags back in the house because I don't want her to go, then I can claim to have used reasonable force to refuse her that right? The right to self determination is applicable to one person as it is to a group of people, no matter how large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, P.K. said: They are already in Spain and therefore subject to Spanish law. It's not just a " logistical" problem either! What would prevent an independent Catalonia imposing tolls? What's to stop them closing the border? I used to drive to Spain quite often and the queues at Le Perthus and Jonkers were legendary. Plus I suspect that all this nationalistic fervour has greed at the bottom of it. Quite. Catalonia is responsible for about a fifth of Spain's GDP, I can see why they would want to hold onto that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 31 minutes ago, P.K. said: Errrr maybe there's a trading thingy.... Which, there's no reason that Catalunya can't join. Or negotiate a deal with as part of the decoupling discussions with Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 21 hours ago, Declan said: I think that is a bizarre way of looking at it. Like you can't divorce unless your partner agrees to it. Or having to get the agreement of all Europe for Brexit to happen. Peoples are entitled to set their own destiny, to run their own affairs. Throughout history the borders in Europe have moved and countries have been independent that now aren't. Why are the current boundaries set in stone? When the Czech Republic and Slovakia were allowed to split, when the Hapsburg Empire was dismantled but suddenly the boundaries of Spain can't be redrawn? It isn't a divorce, nor is the EU a nation state. Spain is a recognised UN member state, as is the United Kingdom. If you are going to have secession without war, then, yes, you do require consent from the 'parent' state. The Scottish referendum was enabled by an Act of the UK Parliament, not a unilateral act by the Scottish Parliament. Whilst citizens of the other nations in the UK did not get a direct say, their elected representatives certainly did. The boundaries of Spain can, of course, be redrawn, with the consent of Spain or by the bloody and painful process that Ireland had to follow. As I have said already, Rajoy has badly mishandled the issue, in the current coalition government and the earlier PP one. As a result of that, and the militancy of the nationalist bloc in Catalunya, it seems to be the latter path that is more likely. If we had more a more developed EU, with far less importance attached to nation states, then the whole question of national identity ceases to be so problematic. If Catalunya wished to become independent from Spain within such a structure, fiscal and economic integration makes it something of a non-issue for Spain, as their economic well-being would be linked to the whole of Europe. So yes, the crisis does show up the inadequacies of the current EU, in that the union is not deep enough, not democratic enough. Full economic, fiscal and political union is required, and if it is achieved, then conflict becomes irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, Declan said: Which, there's no reason that Catalunya can't join. Or negotiate a deal with as part of the decoupling discussions with Spain. Yes there is. Spain doesn't need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 17 minutes ago, Lxxx said: So if my missus decides to leave me and starts to stomp off to see her advocate and I give her a kicking and drag her and her bags back in the house because I don't want her to go, then I can claim to have used reasonable force to refuse her that right? The right to self determination is applicable to one person as it is to a group of people, no matter how large. Yes you can claim to have used reasonable force. You will get crucified by the police and judiciary but by all means claim away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just now, P.K. said: Yes you can claim to have used reasonable force. You will get crucified by the police and judiciary but by all means claim away! In reality I'd probably book her a taxi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, P.K. said: Yes there is. Spain doesn't need to. Spain would need to negotiate with an independent Catalunya, for the reasons you pointed out several posts ago - need access to the borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just now, Declan said: Spain would need to negotiate with an independent Catalunya, for the reasons you pointed out several posts ago - need access to the borders. No. All Spain needs to do is prevent the secession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, P.K. said: No. All Spain needs to do is prevent the secession. And the means to do that, in a democracy, is convince the Catalan people that their future lies in Spain, win a referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Lxxx said: So if my missus decides to leave me and starts to stomp off to see her advocate and I give her a kicking and drag her and her bags back in the house because I don't want her to go, then I can claim to have used reasonable force to refuse her that right? The right to self determination is applicable to one person as it is to a group of people, no matter how large. no its like your wife takes you to court and loses, the court gives you the house and the kids and then your ex wife attempts to take the house and kids, you call the police and ask them to enforce the court order, your wife resists and the police use force to remove her...... all legal and above board....... some of these people still live in caves lets not forget..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Declan said: And the means to do that, in a democracy, is convince the Catalan people that their future lies in Spain, win a referendum. Tell me Declan, just how far did Cameron get with that one...? The gov of the day has a duty of care to ALL of it's citizens. I thought I had made it very obvious that strategically secession is a non-starter for purely geographical reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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