woolley Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 minute ago, P.K. said: Oh dear: Catalan referendum: Region's independence 'in matter of days' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014 Some egotistical nutter seems to be determined to get people hurt.... Madrid has played a shocker. Just like they always do in dealings with Gib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Well-Manicured Man Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Neither is the Fourth Reich (the EU). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, woolley said: Madrid has played a shocker. Just like they always do in dealings with Gib. Agreed. But as in life you have to make the best out of the hand you have been dealt. I hope it doesn't but I suspect this won't end well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, P.K. said: Oh dear: Catalan referendum: Region's independence 'in matter of days' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014 Some egotistical nutter seems to be determined to get people hurt.... I guess the next step is reasonably predictable, in that Madrid will suspend the autonomous Catalan Government, and take direct control of its institutions. Having played the declaration of independence card, it will all be somewhat hollow for the nationalists without revenue, without power and without international recognition. Best case, it all then just withers on the vine. Worst case, sustained civil war and bloodshed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 23 minutes ago, guzzi said: It is without doubt the single most noble international undertaking since the end of the second world war. Noble, or just necessary..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 minute ago, quilp said: Noble, or just necessary..? It was absolutely necessary for Europe to do something noble. "... to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Aristotle said: It's Catalonia in English, you ponce. But I can't remember how to spell it in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 5 hours ago, P.K. said: Can't Madrid be "nationalistic" as well? Certainly, if the people of Madrid have a referendum and decide to leave the rest of Spain, I would support their right to self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 time to 155 the nutters...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 8 hours ago, Declan said: Certainly, if the people of Madrid have a referendum and decide to leave the rest of Spain, I would support their right to self-determination. Don't be deliberately obtuse to try and duck the very valid point that Madrid have to manage the affairs of ALL of Spain for ALL of their citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20171004/caixabank-banco-sabadell-aseguran-defender-intereses-clientes-sera-su-prioridad/1625780.shtml Two of Spains major banks (Caixabank & Banco Sabadell) are based in Catalunya. They have both issued reassuring statements trying to tread the line between 'respecting the right of employees to strike and to demonstrate' and assuring account holders that their deposits are safe and that they have the right framework in place to protect the interests of customers. If I held an account, I would be more interested in whether either bank held sufficient liquidity to withstand a significant panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I'm not ducking your point, PK, I just don't share it. If Catalunya was an independent state now the same interest would be there for Madrid to have access through it. It wouldn't give them the right to annex Catalunya, just because it is in the interests of their people. What I have trouble understanding is how you can blithely dismiss the principle of self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I don't dismiss the principle at all. I'm simply pointing out the practicalities of this situation. If Madrid had given the ok for a referendum all well and good. But as I have pointed out because of it's strategic location and the fact that the gov have to be mindful of the nation as a whole I don't see it ever happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 33 minutes ago, Declan said: I'm not ducking your point, PK, I just don't share it. If Catalunya was an independent state now the same interest would be there for Madrid to have access through it. It wouldn't give them the right to annex Catalunya, just because it is in the interests of their people. What I have trouble understanding is how you can blithely dismiss the principle of self-determination. That really isn't a fair comparison. The annexation of a neighbouring state for economic expediency (or any other reason) would be an act t of war, and clearly illegal under international law. But the fact is that Catalunya is part of Spain, not an independent state. It already enjoys a huge degree of self-determination in comparison to most Spanish communities, even other autonomous communities like Galicia, and that self-determination is being brought into peril by the militant nationalists. The voters in the referendum, the demonstrators on the streets, do not necessarily represent a collective Catalan view. There are also several inconvenient truths that the nationalists may think can simply be voted away, not least the public debt of the Catalan government, €52 billion of which is owed to Madrid, and the fact that the perception that Catalunya is robbed by Madrid is short on truth. They do not receive as much in spending as they collectively pay in tax, but Catalunya is a wealthy region, and Spain understandably and justifiably spends more in some of the much poorer regions. Waste and corruption is certainly an issue in government at all levels, but Catalan independence isn't going to solve that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 @ Guzzi: Very good points, but Madrid has handled this abjectly. If it really is just a few extremist separatists, why did they not let them have their referendum and call their bluff? Now the situation is far, far worse having sent in the Guardia and police from other parts of Spain. It was so easily predictable that it would become the best possible recruiting sergeant for the independence movement. They must be delighted at the mass marches in the streets. There seems to be a dearth of common sense in the world which has become particularly acute at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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