The Berxit lies and betrayals

[John Wright]

23 minutes ago, Rog said:

But most of all BREXIT is, or should be, about restoration of UK sovereignty, control of our borders and who lives in the UK and who will be kicked out, the end of pouring billions into the corrupt EU, and escape from the disgusting ECHR that the loathsome Blair signed us up to, and now the threat of being drawn into an EU armed force. I hope that the EU implodes in the near future, and that BREXIT is the catalyst that sets it off and the ECB going down the pan is a thing that is long overdue.  The EU is a busted flush

Let’s analyse that, allegation, lie by lie.

1. UK never surrendered its sovereignty. It shared it in agreed areas. It will have to do so in any future treaties, free trade agreements, military alliances, not just with Europe, but the rest of the world. In fact it will transfer sovereignty to WTO if it doesn’t get all these hoped for free trade agreements. The fact it can withdraw shows it always retained full sovereignty.

2. We’ve always been able to control our borders within the EU. We just didn’t do it well. What makes you think Brexit will improve things.

3. We’ve not poured in billions into a corrupt EU. The Court of Auditors has signed off the EU budget year after year. The suggestion it hadn’t is untrue. Yes, there has been a cost, but the stability of Europe and the transition of ex totalitarian, military or communist regimes to Liberal Democracy is worth every penny.

4. EHCR. UK signed up in the 1950’s and agreed compulsory jurisdiction in the 1960’s. It’s not an EU institution. Brexit won’t change that. What Blair did was to give Human Rights jurisdiction to UK courts, rather than just the Strasbourg  Court. Isn’t that what brexiteers want. Jurisdiction by British Courts?

5. There’s no chance of an EU army. UK had a veto. We will still be in NATO. Of course we also have a bilateral agreement with France for the AngloFrench Expeditionary Force.

The only sovereign state that doesn’t surrender or share sovereignty is North Korea. And even it is hit by sanctions. 

 

[Barrie Stevens]

9 minutes ago, Rog said:

But most of all BREXIT is, or should be, about restoration of UK sovereignty, control of our borders and who lives in the UK and who will be kicked out, the end of pouring billions into the corrupt EU, and escape from the disgusting ECHR that the loathsome Blair signed us up to, and now the threat of being drawn into an EU armed force. I hope that the EU implodes in the near future, and that BREXIT is the catalyst that sets it off and the ECB going down the pan is a thing that is long overdue.  The EU is a busted flush

Actually the UK invented or instigated the ECHR in May (5th) 1949 (Council of Europe it was signed up in London that year) I don't think Tony Blair was born then? In the meantime read the article.

The UK has been a prime driver for the ECHR and which is not an EU organisation.

The UK was a prime driver for the Single Market and for the Maastricht Treaty which set up the EU itself and for which the Isle of Man also signed up to. I have held the very treaty in my own fair hands courtesy of External Relations Division and Tynwald Library. Seen Sir Miles Walker's "Hancock" on it.

The time to have had a referendum was I think 1992 and the Maastricht Treaty which set up European integration but John Major managed to swerve that. The Treaty became effective 1993. It received publicity in the IOM at that time but no one cared as they were too busy eating greasy chips and watching "Corrie".

[Barrie Stevens]

Thank you for that Mr John Wright!!!

[woolley]

It has to happen. Aside from the massive independence and sovereignty benefits of being out of the EU, can you imagine the shit they would make us eat after doing a volte-face on this scale? We would suffer the same way Italy did for changing sides in WW2, and for just as long.

"Oh yes, certainly, but no more rebates on the contributions. In fact, the contributions will be going up. Naturally you would want to join the euro and Schengen and be integral to our EU Defence Force." And every time we objected to something, it would be "Ahhh, but remember Brexit. More Europe is what we need." No thanks. Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

[Barrie Stevens]

Just now, woolley said:

It has to happen. Aside from the massive independence and sovereignty benefits of being out of the EU, can you imagine the shit they would make us eat after doing a volte-face on this scale? We would suffer the same way Italy did for changing sides in WW2, and for just as long.

"Oh yes, certainly, but no more rebates on the contributions. In fact, the contributions will be going up. Naturally you would want to join the euro and Schengen and be integral to our EU Defence Force." And every time we objected to something, it would be "Ahhh, but remember Brexit. More Europe is what we need." No thanks. Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

"For if we do not hang together we shall surely all hang separately"...Brexit it is...Get on with it now the devil with it.....Bit like the American Revolution...You shot a lot of Red Coats on Bunker/Breed's Hill...No going back!

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Let’s analyse that, allegation, lie by lie.

1. UK never surrendered its sovereignty. It shared it in agreed areas.

A nonsense because you can be outvoted. Sovereignty means having self-determination.

2. We’ve always been able to control our borders within the EU. We just didn’t do it well.

No. We are subject to EU rules, free movement and the ECJ.

3. We’ve not poured in billions into a corrupt EU. The Court of Auditors has signed off the EU budget year after year. The suggestion it hadn’t is untrue. Yes, there has been a cost, but the stability of Europe and the transition of ex totalitarian, military or communist regimes to Liberal Democracy is worth every penny.

We have. It is a wasteful institution. You really cannot deny this. Despite often taking the credit for it, peace in Europe and the collapse of communism in the east owes absolutely nothing to the EU. That is the doing of the NATO alliance and the fear of mutually assured destruction.

4. EHCR. UK signed up in the 1950’s and agreed compulsory jurisdiction in the 1960’s. It’s not an EU institution. Brexit won’t change that. What Blair did was to give Human Rights jurisdiction to UK courts, rather than just the Strasbourg  Court. Isn’t that what brexiteers want. Jurisdiction by British Courts?

Correct.

5. There’s no chance of an EU army. UK had a veto. We will still be in NATO. Of course we also have a bilateral agreement with France for the AngloFrench Expeditionary Force.

It's the fact that there is an appetite for it in the EU. Typical of its ever expending tentacles into ever more aspects of the national life of its members towards the holy grail of "ever closer union".

 

 

 

[John Wright]

4 minutes ago, woolley said:

It has to happen. Aside from the massive independence and sovereignty benefits of being out of the EU, can you imagine the shit they would make us eat after doing a volte-face on this scale? We would suffer the same way Italy did for changing sides in WW2, and for just as long.

"Oh yes, certainly, but no more rebates on the contributions. In fact, the contributions will be going up. Naturally you would want to join the euro and Schengen and be integral to our EU Defence Force." And every time we objected to something, it would be "Ahhh, but remember Brexit. More Europe is what we need." No thanks. Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

I’d love to know what the alleged “massive” alleged independence and sovereignty benefits are in reality rather than fantasy.

Hosever I agree that if we leave and later reapply there won’t be a rebate, we would have to join the Euro, Schengen isn’t compulsory, you have to apply to join, and neither is the EU Army. All countries already have a veto on that, so the situation wouldn’t actually change.

So that leaves another possibility, we don’t leave, there’s a defeat in Parliament on the agreed terms, or a general election, or a second referendum. Article 50 notice is withdrawn just before 29 March 2019.

i suspect the fright to both sides would lead to swift and meaningful changes to the EU.

But I’m not holding my breath.

[John Wright]

woolley, each of your assertions is untrue or conflates and confuses different things.

This link, and the links within it show the reality.

https://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/long-list-leave-lies/

Yes, NATO and mutually assured destruction may have stopped war between east and west,  but had nothing to do with stabilisation of Spain, Greece, Portugal or  Central Europe, the Baltic or Balkan states post dictatorship 

[Rog]

52 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Let’s analyse that, allegation, lie by lie.

1. UK never surrendered its sovereignty. It shared it in agreed areas. It will have to do so in any future treaties, free trade agreements, military alliances, not just with Europe, but the rest of the world. In fact it will transfer sovereignty to WTO if it doesn’t get all these hoped for free trade agreements. The fact it can withdraw shows it always retained full sovereignty.

2. We’ve always been able to control our borders within the EU. We just didn’t do it well. What makes you think Brexit will improve things.

3. We’ve not poured in billions into a corrupt EU. The Court of Auditors has signed off the EU budget year after year. The suggestion it hadn’t is untrue. Yes, there has been a cost, but the stability of Europe and the transition of ex totalitarian, military or communist regimes to Liberal Democracy is worth every penny.

4. EHCR. UK signed up in the 1950’s and agreed compulsory jurisdiction in the 1960’s. It’s not an EU institution. Brexit won’t change that. What Blair did was to give Human Rights jurisdiction to UK courts, rather than just the Strasbourg  Court. Isn’t that what brexiteers want. Jurisdiction by British Courts?

5. There’s no chance of an EU army. UK had a veto. We will still be in NATO. Of course we also have a bilateral agreement with France for the AngloFrench Expeditionary Force.

The only sovereign state that doesn’t surrender or share sovereignty is North Korea. And even it is hit by sanctions. 

 

I stand by what I wrote.

[Rog]

38 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I’d love to know what the alleged “massive” alleged independence and sovereignty benefits are in reality rather than fantasy.

Hosever I agree that if we leave and later reapply there won’t be a rebate, we would have to join the Euro, Schengen isn’t compulsory, you have to apply to join, and neither is the EU Army. All countries already have a veto on that, so the situation wouldn’t actually change.

So that leaves another possibility, we don’t leave, there’s a defeat in Parliament on the agreed terms, or a general election, or a second referendum. Article 50 notice is withdrawn just before 29 March 2019.

i suspect the fright to both sides would lead to swift and meaningful changes to the EU.

But I’m not holding my breath.

Why can't "remoaners" get their mind around the simple fact that the majority just want to escape from Brussels? That we want OUR country back and as many of the illegals and scroungers kicked out?  That we don't want to see the street signs in increasing parts of our towns and cities in Bengali and or Arabic? That we are fed up with increasing numbers of our towns and cities filled with mobile black letterboxes? In short OUR country being stolen from under our noses?  We just want OUR county back.

[Rog]

46 minutes ago, John Wright said:

woolley, each of your assertions is untrue or conflates and confuses different things.

This link, and the links within it show the reality.

https://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/long-list-leave-lies/

Yes, NATO and mutually assured destruction may have stopped war between east and west,  but had nothing to do with stabilisation of Spain, Greece, Portugal or  Central Europe, the Baltic or Balkan states post dictatorship 

Of course it did.  

[woody2]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

Let’s analyse that, allegation, lie by lie.

1. UK never surrendered its sovereignty. It shared it in agreed areas. It will have to do so in any future treaties, free trade agreements, military alliances, not just with Europe, but the rest of the world. In fact it will transfer sovereignty to WTO if it doesn’t get all these hoped for free trade agreements. The fact it can withdraw shows it always retained full sovereignty.

2. We’ve always been able to control our borders within the EU. We just didn’t do it well. What makes you think Brexit will improve things.

3. We’ve not poured in billions into a corrupt EU. The Court of Auditors has signed off the EU budget year after year. The suggestion it hadn’t is untrue. Yes, there has been a cost, but the stability of Europe and the transition of ex totalitarian, military or communist regimes to Liberal Democracy is worth every penny.

4. EHCR. UK signed up in the 1950’s and agreed compulsory jurisdiction in the 1960’s. It’s not an EU institution. Brexit won’t change that. What Blair did was to give Human Rights jurisdiction to UK courts, rather than just the Strasbourg  Court. Isn’t that what brexiteers want. Jurisdiction by British Courts?

5. There’s no chance of an EU army. UK had a veto. We will still be in NATO. Of course we also have a bilateral agreement with France for the AngloFrench Expeditionary Force.

The only sovereign state that doesn’t surrender or share sovereignty is North Korea. And even it is hit by sanctions. 

 

what a load of bollocks.....

no.4 is nearly right, but you can't even get that right.....

[John Wright]

17 minutes ago, woody2 said:

what a load of bollocks.....

no.4 is nearly right, but you can't even get that right.....

Please enlighten me where I’ve gone wrong with 4, signed in 1950, came into force 1953, UK allowed individual right of petition ( compulsory jurisdiction ) in 1966

[Rog]

1 minute ago, John Wright said:

Please enlighten me where I’ve gone wrong with 4, signed in 1950, came into force 1953, UK allowed individual right of petition ( compulsory jurisdiction ) in 1966

One name - Blair.

[John Wright]

35 minutes ago, Rog said:

Why can't "remoaners" get their mind around the simple fact that the majority just want to escape from Brussels? That we want OUR country back and as many of the illegals and scroungers kicked out?  That we don't want to see the street signs in increasing parts of our towns and cities in Bengali and or Arabic? That we are fed up with increasing numbers of our towns and cities filled with mobile black letterboxes? In short OUR country being stolen from under our noses?  We just want OUR county back.

I’m not a remoaner, or a Remainer.  Yes I believe in the European ideal, yes I’d have voted stay if I’d have a vote, but I recognise the democratic process, there has been a vote to leave, and in any democratic system that takes precedence unless there’s a later vote overturning it.