Rivers of blood revisited.

[homarus]

12 hours ago, P.K. said:

 1. The fact that in some cultures subjugating women is the norm is not exactly some kind of deep, dark secret.

 2. They do it in some third world country and its allowed.

3. They do it in the UK and we lock them up.

4. They don't like it then fine. There are plenty of third world shitholes with no sanitation, health service, security etc etc that we can help them move to.....

1. Especially when you see them walking down British Streets in full Bin bag garb, when they're allowed out on without  chaperone that is!

9000 cases of recorded FGM in Britain last year ,no successful prosecutions.

2. It's  allowed in the UK.

3.  No we don''t.

4.  They don't need to , a lot of Britain's towns and Cities are starting to resemble the third world shitholes they come from.

[Rog]

11 hours ago, John Wright said:

Of course Powell was too clever for his own, or anyone else’s, good, sometimes. He had a huge inferiority complex having gone to Oxbridge from relatively humble roots.

He was a fine debater and one of the best parliamentary orators of his time. Only equalled by Tony Benn.

He compensated, in my view, by over thinking and talking above the heads of most of his audience.

Of course he knew what he was doing, in one sense. He sets out his debating question. He says, I don’t know the answer to this, I can’t predict the future, but we do need to debate this. Great in the Oxbridge Union, even addressing a Court or in parliament. He was provoking debate. And it was an issue worthy of proper, measured, serious debate.

But he couldn’t resist trying to be clever, put in his Aeneas quote, wrongly attributing it to a “Roman”. In fact if you read the original it’s said by a Greek prophetess of Apollo ( a Greek god ), in a Greek colony, to a Greek man who was thinking of applying for a visa and work permit to go to Rome. It suggests Rome may not be safe.

That, when hysterically reported by the press as Rivers of Blood, so clouded the issue that there was no possibility of rational debate. For a generation, and more, no one could even discuss how to deal with integration, diversity, language, etc, without opprobrium. Even the most rational ideas.

It didn’t affect the likes of the NF, BNP or Rog, of course, apart from the fact that no one would rationally engage and debate about wrongness of their views. They became entrenched, marginalised. It led to the no platform for Fascists movement. Unchallenged the far right and racists recruited amongst the disaffected. A typical and frequent route for that political mind set.

im not sure if Powell even considered the possible side effect. An unintended, and very unfortunate,  consequence.

Viscount Stansgate (call me Tony) did indeed have the gift of the gab but unlike Powell his morality and political aims were utterly foul.

[John Wright]

35 minutes ago, Rog said:

Viscount Stansgate (call me Tony) did indeed have the gift of the gab but unlike Powell his morality and political aims were utterly foul.

Sigh. There’s no debating or engaging, is there Rog? You don’t agree or like and everyone is filth, scum, pollution, foul, immoral. Don’t you ever stop and think that you may, just may, be wrong, and actually research the facts which time and time again disprove your views.

 

 

 

 

[P.K.]

45 minutes ago, Rog said:

Viscount Stansgate (call me Tony) did indeed have the gift of the gab but unlike Powell his morality and political aims were utterly foul.

 

5 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Sigh. There’s no debating or engaging, is there Rog? You don’t agree or like and everyone is filth, scum, pollution, foul, immoral. Don’t you ever stop and think that you may, just may, be wrong, and actually research the facts which time and time again disprove your views.

In this day and age politicians just don't make the kind of speeches that resonate through the years that follow.

They're reduced to snippets and soundbites that are better suited to the massive changes in the way we receive information. 

And unfortunately better suited to lightweight politicians.....

[Rog]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Sigh. There’s no debating or engaging, is there Rog? You don’t agree or like and everyone is filth, scum, pollution, foul, immoral. Don’t you ever stop and think that you may, just may, be wrong, and actually research the facts which time and time again disprove your views.

 

 

 

 

My dear boy, there are some things that are axiomatic. While these may at times be subjective many are not. I deal with those that are not.

[John Wright]

Just remember that an axiom is a postulation or statement taken to be true for the purpose of debate or discussion. It is not an actual truth or fact.its the ( fixed blinkered ) view you hold. Nothing more.

Your axiom may we’ll be absurd, nonsense or bullshit to most other men. 

[John Wright]

30 minutes ago, P.K. said:

 

In this day and age politicians just don't make the kind of speeches that resonate through the years that follow.

They're reduced to snippets and soundbites that are better suited to the massive changes in the way we receive information. 

And unfortunately better suited to lightweight politicians.....

Totally agree about the paucity of political debate and news reduced to sound bite.

As for the comparison between Benn and Powell, both of whom I heard live, both could deliver soundbites. Benn in particular. But the huge difference was that Benn spoke to his audience in language they understood and connected with. A man of the people. Powell appeared patrician, talked above their heads and had no connection.

[Rog]

14 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Just remember that an axiom is a postulation or statement taken to be true for the purpose of debate or discussion. It is not an actual truth or fact.its the ( fixed blinkered ) view you hold. Nothing more.

Your axiom may we’ll be absurd, nonsense or bullshit to most other men. 

An axiom is also defined as a thing that is self evident, that is the context in which it is mostly used and the context in which I employ it here.

[woody2]

On 13/04/2018 at 9:26 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

 Just as bombing millions of muslims to death by the USA/UK/France goes unnoticed today.
 

no one died......

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, Rog said:

An axiom is also defined as a thing that is self evident, that is the context in which it is mostly used and the context in which I employ it here.

And self evident does not mean fact or true.

Probably the best known axiomatic statement is " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" but to the people who wrote those words it did not include blacks, slaves, women, non property owners, American natives. Their axiom is different to mine. Of course its interpretation has changed over the years but you appear to support some of the original exclusions.

You fall into exactly the same trap.

[P.K.]

9 hours ago, homarus said:

1. Especially when you see them walking down British Streets in full Bin bag garb, when they're allowed out on without  chaperone that is!

9000 cases of recorded FGM in Britain last year ,no successful prosecutions.

2. It's  allowed in the UK.

3.  No we don''t.

4.  They don't need to , a lot of Britain's towns and Cities are starting to resemble the third world shitholes they come from.

Oh do come off it.

We prosecute those we catch and lock them up.

The FGM issue is a tricky one. Lack of evidence?

[Rog]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

And self evident does not mean fact or true.

Probably the best known axiomatic statement is " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" but to the people who wrote those words it did not include blacks, slaves, women, non property owners, American natives. Their axiom is different to mine. Of course its interpretation has changed over the years but you appear to support some of the original exclusions.

You fall into exactly the same trap.

No, on the contrary. The first sentence  illustrates that precisely. The key word in it is "We".   

Mo

 

 

[Rog]

4 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Oh do come off it.

We prosecute those we catch and lock them up.

The FGM issue is a tricky one. Lack of evidence?

The record shows that our police far far too often do not address blatant criminal offences out of sensitivity towards"cultural differences" or raw fear of being labeled as being "racists". 

 

[twinkle]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

Totally agree about the paucity of political debate and news reduced to sound bite.

As for the comparison between Benn and Powell, both of whom I heard live, both could deliver soundbites. Benn in particular. But the huge difference was that Benn spoke to his audience in language they understood and connected with. A man of the people. Powell appeared patrician, talked above their heads and had no connection.

Powell was probably above you're lefty luvvy anti British establishment bias.

[homarus]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

 

 

The FGM issue is a tricky one. Lack of evidence?

Only 9000 recorded cases ,yes I can see that!