woolley Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 There will have been 2 million aboard the Empire Windrush by the time we've finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 7 hours ago, ballaughbiker said: WMD / Iraq Diane? And then there's the stuff you didn't know in a series of embarrasing radio interviews. WMD/Iraq was a basic fact that was 'got wrong' to our considerable detriment and that will impact for decades. To be fair, Diane Abbott voted consistently voted against the Iraq War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 8 hours ago, ballaughbiker said: the basic mistake was considering them (due to a technicality not of their making) as illegals. The very concept of illegal immigration is dumbo. I really don't understand how any self respecting freedom loving free trader can possibly put up with the idea of imaginary lines on maps enforced by the state they hate so much. Free trade, open borders and the free movement of people and capital are indivisible. Countries are made up. Only the ultra hard left would believe in closed borders or the state telling people what they can do or where they can live. I don't really share much in common with Diane Abbot. But I really like how she pisses people off. And her basic humanity actually too. I think she gets a lot wrong but I think she is basically well meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 I don't question that DA is basically well meaning. However someone who makes the gaffes she has done over the last year or two would be well advised not to criticise others perceived to be doing similar. Still, I suppose it is the job of opposition so to do, no matter what. A good opposition is healthy but I think opportunism is really what this is about. It would be great if we really didn't have boders pongo but the economy would be obviously uncontrollable. That would be to nobody's benefit especially those who need help. Illegals have the option of becoming legal and one naturally assumes they do better by remaining illegal. So how does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 3 hours ago, pongo said: The very concept of illegal immigration is dumbo. I really don't understand how any self respecting freedom loving free trader can possibly put up with the idea of imaginary lines on maps enforced by the state they hate so much. Free trade, open borders and the free movement of people and capital are indivisible. Countries are made up. Only the ultra hard left would believe in closed borders or the state telling people what they can do or where they can live. I don't really share much in common with Diane Abbot. But I really like how she pisses people off. And her basic humanity actually too. I think she gets a lot wrong but I think she is basically well meaning. For an intelligent person, Pongo, you sometimes run straight off the end of the pier. What a load of unworkable utopian nonsense. I would file this with Lennon's "Imagine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 11 hours ago, pongo said: The very concept of illegal immigration is dumbo. I really don't understand how any self respecting freedom loving free trader can possibly put up with the idea of imaginary lines on maps enforced by the state they hate so much. Free trade, open borders and the free movement of people and capital are indivisible. Countries are made up. Only the ultra hard left would believe in closed borders or the state telling people what they can do or where they can live. I don't really share much in common with Diane Abbot. But I really like how she pisses people off. And her basic humanity actually too. I think she gets a lot wrong but I think she is basically well meaning. she's a racist...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 Seems to me amber is taking one for the team here to protect the scarecrow. Either way i find the ambiguity of her statements quite fascinating. She's a politician alright. You can learn a lot when you know somebody is lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said: Seems to me amber is taking one for the team here to protect the scarecrow. Either way i find the ambiguity of her statements quite fascinating. She's a politician alright. You can learn a lot when you know somebody is lying. leaked memo= hatchet job..... if rudd is hanging by a thread abbott must be attached to a crane...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 hostile environment policy was introduced under labour according to postman alan..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 hours ago, woody2 said: leaked memo= hatchet job..... if rudd is hanging by a thread abbott must be attached to a crane...... Was it a #fakememo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 hours ago, the stinking enigma said: Was it a #fakememo? the labour run home office provided the info to rudd, if the info (on purpose) is misleading, time to sack the civil servants..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 20 hours ago, woolley said: For an intelligent person, Pongo, you sometimes run straight off the end of the pier. What a load of unworkable utopian nonsense. I would file this with Lennon's "Imagine". My point was not directed towards you. You have said many times that you basically believe in 1960s/70s style protectionism and the modern equivalent of capital controls - rather than free and open trade. But anyone who essentially believes in what Mrs Thatcher and Keith Joseph claimed to be about should shudder at the continued existence, 40 years later, of immigration and labour controls. Immigration and labour controls create artificial costs and inhibit innovation which is the driving force of the supply side model I can understand why socialists would support border controls - they believe in top down solutions. But anyone advocating a free trade Brexit must surely understand that the free movement of capital and the free movement of labour are indivisible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 hour ago, pongo said: I can understand why socialists would support border controls - they believe in top down solutions. But anyone advocating a free trade Brexit must surely understand that the free movement of capital and the free movement of labour are indivisible. You misunderstand. There are different principles here. I support national sovereignty so that peoples have self-determination. It does not follow that the free movement of capital and the free movement of labour are indivisible. That is Brussels twaddle. I support fair trade but not at the behest of the forces of global capital and devil take the hindmost. Trade and finance should be our servant, not our master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Labour is a form of capital. If you are a capitalist then you should support free capitalism. Restrictions on the movement of labour = capital controls. 23 minutes ago, woolley said: That is Brussels twaddle. Nothing to do with Brussels. Either you're a capitalist or not. It's an all or nothing. There is no middle ground. Your position seems much closer to what the Soviets proposed - a sort of state capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, pongo said: Labour is a form of capital. If you are a capitalist then you should support free capitalism. Restrictions on the movement of labour = capital controls. Nothing to do with Brussels. Either you're a capitalist or not. It's an all or nothing. There is no middle ground. Your position seems much closer to what the Soviets proposed - a sort of state capitalism. Free capital and "light touch" regulation led us to the 2008 meltdown, a very strange regime to advocate. There is middle ground. I am a capitalist but there has to be regulation. Too much of anything leads to a bad dose of indigestion and that applies to financial laissez-faire just as much as it applies to overblown government, national or supra-national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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