Alfie Evans is fatally ill. Should he be allowed to die in peace?

[homarus]

48 minutes ago, quilp said:

Where is this argument going H? 

 Absolutely nowhere Quilp  !

   I'm coming at it from an angle that it is wrong for the state to take away the from the  parents the choice of whether their child lives or dies , but I seem to be surrounded by medical experts on this topic who appear to have all been privy to what I would say would have been confidential patient information and  all of  whom seem to see no  no issue with the state deciding life or death!!

 Yet  strangely enough the only known doctor on this forum has sensibly  stayed well away !

[homarus]

42 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said:

Well if you are on about the hippocratic oath, I think that has been replaced sometime ago with more up to date guidance. However if you don't accept that, and are thinking along the lines of what it used to say with reference to doing harm then harm needs defining legally.

Keeping an otherwise terminally ill body ventilated for years would do harm in some people's eyes. Even if you can't accept that then would you agree that it is doing no good ?

And there really is no need for "Err!!"

Stop being so precious!!

[woody2]

2 hours ago, RIchard Britten said:

What is interesting is the US response to all this.

Some are using it as an example of why free healthcare is bad (incorrectly I must add).

 

All the more amusing (in a sigh worthy way) are thos saying if we had the "2nd" in the UK, Alfie could have been rescued at gun point (although the irony of saving a life destined to die shortly by ending other lives is utterly lost on the people making the statement.

bloody liberals......

[woolley]

I always remember in a discussion many years ago, a doctor was confronted with the accusation that the medics are playing god. His response was, "Somebody has to." which seems appropriate to this case. The parents' backers don't seem to appreciate that their well-intentioned wishes could well prolong the child's suffering and every single court agreed with that assessment. Even the medics retained by the parents to give an independent opinion commented that the issue was the parent's difficulty in confronting the reality of Alfie's condition. In those circumstances, the courts have to rule dispassionately in the interests of the patient. The parents have no rights to assert if their planned course of action flies in the face of all reason.

[ballaughbiker]

Nobody is professing to be any sort of medical expert homarus and if you care to look back it was made clear that an opinion had been formed on the information available. It hasn't stopped you however coming to a judgement with the same amount of information.

I was actually agreeing with your original stance that the parents should have the say whether to take the child to Italy or not until it became clear that no active treatment was proposed. All that was on offer was further futile ventilation.

It is noted that you haven't aswered a question a bit back by woolley who enquired exactly how long should this child have been ventilated for?  Until the parents said stop? 

 

 

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

Stop being so precious!!

After being called a c..t?  Yeah.....

[woolley]

13 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said:

 

I was actually agreeing with your original stance that the parents should have the say whether to take the child to Italy or not until it became clear that no active treatment was proposed. All that was on offer was further futile ventilation.

 

 

 

I do agree that this would have been a more nuanced judgment, but as it was it was totally an open and shut case - or should have been.

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, homarus said:

 Absolutely nowhere Quilp  !

   I'm coming at it from an angle that it is wrong for the state to take away the from the  parents the choice of whether their child lives or dies , but I seem to be surrounded by medical experts on this topic who appear to have all been privy to what I would say would have been confidential patient information and  all of  whom seem to see no  no issue with the state deciding life or death!!

 Yet  strangely enough the only known doctor on this forum has sensibly  stayed well away !

What about the child's rights?  If Alfie could have communicated do you think he would want to remain on a ventilator, fed artificially and with no chance to recover or do you think he would choose to receive palliative care and be in a "comfortable" condition until he passed away.

Many times we see adults go to court to establish a right to die when they are suffering from debilitating conditions for which modern medicine has no cure.  Do we think that a child would also want to live on in pain and be kept alive through intrusive medical intervention?

The situation is shit and I cannot imagine how the parents feel.  I have seen people die and I hope that when my time is up that I can slip away peacefully and without pain. 

[woolley]

Amen to that. Don't we all. You would be prosecuted for allowing an animal to suffer in the way we have to watch our loved ones suffer under current legislation.

[guzzi]

Once a decision had been taken to withdraw ventilation, hydration and feeding, it was clear that the poor lad was entering his last day or so.   Once that is clear, the option to administer a drug leading to a peaceful end, slipping into unconsciousness, ought to be available. Not just in Alfie's case, but for all of us.   The last few hours, struggling for breath, effectively drowning in your own fluids are not something that I would want for anyone, having been with a loved one throughout that business.   We all ought to be able to expect a peaceful end to our lives.

[the stinking enigma]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44032831

[quilp]

"There's no other explanation but god!"

Righto... 

[RIchard Britten]

Causal linkage at its finest.

[pongo]

7 hours ago, quilp said:

"There's no other explanation but god!"

To most theologians (Jesus, the Anglican tradition, many Jews and probably even the current Pope) God is, more or less, a metaphor. 

[guzzi]

So this boy had a trailer land on his head, he didn't have a degenerative neurological condition.  Relevant how?