Ballymurphy Massacre Inquest

[Chinahand]

I find it quite disturbing that old planks are personally at risk of prosecution while IRA terrorists have their comfort letters.

South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission got the balance about right - admit wrongs, be honest about past deeds and there is no risk of prosecution.

The IRA hasn't accounted for their disappeared or for the thousands of acts of savagery they plotted and carried out over the troubles, but it is mainly squaddies who are being hauled before prosecutors these days.

The deaths in 1971 are appalling - it was a dirty war. 

 

[paswt]

17 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I find it quite disturbing that old planks are personally at risk of prosecution while IRA terrorists have their comfort letters.

South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission got the balance about right - admit wrongs, be honest about past deeds and there is no risk of prosecution.

The IRA hasn't accounted for their disappeared or for the thousands of acts of savagery they plotted and carried out over the troubles, but it is mainly squaddies who are being hauled before prosecutors these days.

The deaths in 1971 are appalling - it was a dirty war. 

 

Fair comment perhaps the prosecution of ex UK military may be justified but at the same time  to give the Irish terrorists  ( on both sides) immunity from prosecution  speaks volumes about the mindset of the 'politicians'   backing this  policy. 

[P.K.]

Oh well, despite the mindset of the politicians It looks like The Good Friday Agreement will go to ratshit anyway.

[Neil Down]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:14 PM, Max Power said:

I think you're putting the cart before the horse there Rog, I was of exactly the same opinion as you until recently, knowing people who were involved and finally watching the documentary. The whole thing began with Catholics asking for civil rights and organising marches. The more extreme protestants began attacking them and also began burning them out of their homes. The army were sent in to keep the peace which was appreciated by the Catholic side. The IRA started jumping on the bandwagon, despite not being particularly well organised. The British Government over reacted and began internment without any need for evidence, further giving the Catholics something to be aggrieved about. They then sent in the Paras who treated them as they did the Mau Mau. They could have kept a lid on this by changing the law in NI to give equality and installing a peace keeping role, not a death squad. 

This would be a BBC documentary?

 

[Neil Down]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:04 PM, Chinahand said:

I find it quite disturbing that old planks are personally at risk of prosecution while IRA terrorists have their comfort letters.

South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission got the balance about right - admit wrongs, be honest about past deeds and there is no risk of prosecution.

The IRA hasn't accounted for their disappeared or for the thousands of acts of savagery they plotted and carried out over the troubles, but it is mainly squaddies who are being hauled before prosecutors these days.

The deaths in 1971 are appalling - it was a dirty war. 

 

A war in which one side fought in uniform whilst the other from behind women and children...

[Chinahand]

Erm ... I think there is, sadly, more than enough evidence that some of those who fought in uniform cooperated with those who killed women and children and who protected their sources in those who fought behind women and children over the lives of said women and children.

It was a truly dirty war.

I wish we could pretend the British Army behaved in exemplary fashion throughout ... but it didn't and some who wore the uniform were no better than the thugs and terrorists on the other side.

 

[Freggyragh]

For those who don’t know the context, or only heard it from one side, this is how the ‘Troubles’ began, at a time when Catholics were campaigning rights such as ‘one man - one vote’, an end to gerrymandered election districts and an end to discrimination in social provision and employment:

The first murders of the ‘Troubles’ were carried out by the loyalist UVF in 1966. The first was a protestant 72 year-old widow who lived next to a pub they firebombed, the next was a random civilian Catholic man aged 28, shot walking home from work, the third was a random teenage Catholic boy, shot as he left a pub.

The first bombing campaign began in March 1969; it was conducted by loyalists, but initially blamed on republicans. Loyalists set off 5 bombs in April. 

The next deaths came in July 1969, after the civil rights marchers had been beaten off the streets and programs had begun. The first was a 67 year-old male Catholic protester, hit on the head by an RUC officer’s baton. The next was a 42 year-old Catholic man beaten in his own home by RUC officers with batons. As sectarian rioting and the loyalist bombing campaign continued, both in the Northern Ireland and the Republic, the RoI Government appealed for UN peacekeepers to be brought in, and refugee camps were established along the border. The British Army were deployed on the 14th of August 1969 - the same day as 30 year-old Catholic John Gallagher was shot dead by the RUC at a disturbance after a civil rights meeting, and a 9 year-old Catholic boy was shot dead in his bedroom by a stray RUC bullet. The first British Army casualty occurred the very next day, when an off-duty 20 year-old squaddie who lived in nationalist West Belfast was shot dead by the RUC whilst helping a wounded man to safety. The same day a 27 year-old Catholic man was shot dead by the RUC in his own home, a 28 year-old Catholic man was shot dead by the RUC in street disturbances, a 15 year-old boy who was helping evacuate families out of homes in Bombay Street that had been set alight by loyalist mobs was shot dead by a loyalist gunman. The fifteen year-old was a member of a Republican youth movement; the first casualty with any republican connection. The same night the first loyalists were shot dead; a 48 year-old who was manning a barricade and a 26 year-old who was part a loyalist mob rampaging through a nationalist area of West Belfast. In September 1969 another loyalist was shot dead by republicans at an interface area in North Belfast. In October, two loyalists, a 25 year-old man and a 32 year-old man, were shot dead by the British Army, a 29 year-old RUC Officer was shot dead by loyalists, and a 45 year-old loyalist UVF bomb-maker died after a bomb he was planting at a power station in the Republic blew up prematurely. At the beginning of December a 61 year-old Catholic man died from wounds inflicted by batons after an altercation with the RUC in August. On the 26th of December 1969 the UVF set off a bomb in Dublin. 

The Provisional IRA was formed at the end of December 1969. At which point the British Army had been in Belfast for three and a half months, Loyalists had bombed, rampaged and murdered six, the RUC had killed seven, the British Army two, and Republicans two. 

I wonder how things might have turned out if the government of Northern Ireland had sorted out the discrimination, protected and policed both communities fairly and kept a tight rein on the RUC? 

Of course, prosecuting old soldiers for things that happened because of poor governance fifty years ago is pointless. An inquiry and study of what went wrong would help though. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Freggyragh

[Rog]

43 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

For those who don’t know the context, or only heard it from one side, this is how the ‘Troubles’ began, at a time when Catholics were campaigning rights such as ‘one man - one vote’, an end to gerrymandered election districts and an end to discrimination in social provision and employment:

The first murders of the ‘Troubles’ were carried out by the loyalist UVF in 1966. The first was a protestant 72 year-old widow who lived next to a pub they firebombed, the next was a random civilian Catholic man aged 28, shot walking home from work, the third was a random teenage Catholic boy, shot as he left a pub.

The first bombing campaign began in March 1969; it was conducted by loyalists, but initially blamed on republicans. Loyalists set off 5 bombs in April. 

The next deaths came in July 1969, after the civil rights marchers had been beaten off the streets and programs had begun. The first was a 67 year-old male Catholic protester, hit on the head by an RUC officer’s baton. The next was a 42 year-old Catholic man beaten in his own home by RUC officers with batons. As sectarian rioting and the loyalist bombing campaign continued, both in the Northern Ireland and the Republic, the RoI Government appealed for UN peacekeepers to be brought in, and refugee camps were established along the border. The British Army were deployed on the 14th of August 1969 - the same day as 30 year-old Catholic John Gallagher was shot dead by the RUC at a disturbance after a civil rights meeting, and a 9 year-old Catholic boy was shot dead in his bedroom by a stray RUC bullet. The first British Army casualty occurred the very next day, when an off-duty 20 year-old squaddie who lived in nationalist West Belfast was shot dead by the RUC whilst helping a wounded man to safety. The same day a 27 year-old Catholic man was shot dead by the RUC in his own home, a 28 year-old Catholic man was shot dead by the RUC in street disturbances, a 15 year-old boy who was helping evacuate families out of homes in Bombay Street that had been set alight by loyalist mobs was shot dead by a loyalist gunman. The fifteen year-old was a member of a Republican youth movement; the first casualty with any republican connection. The same night the first loyalists were shot dead; a 48 year-old who was manning a barricade and a 26 year-old who was part a loyalist mob rampaging through a nationalist area of West Belfast. In September 1969 another loyalist was shot dead by republicans at an interface area in North Belfast. In October, two loyalists, a 25 year-old man and a 32 year-old man, were shot dead by the British Army, a 29 year-old RUC Officer was shot dead by loyalists, and a 45 year-old loyalist UVF bomb-maker died after a bomb he was planting at a power station in the Republic blew up prematurely. At the beginning of December a 61 year-old Catholic man died from wounds inflicted by batons after an altercation with the RUC in August. On the 26th of December 1969 the UVF set off a bomb in Dublin. 

The Provisional IRA was formed at the end of December 1969. At which point the British Army had been in Belfast for three and a half months, Loyalists had bombed, rampaged and murdered six, the RUC had killed seven, the British Army two, and Republicans two. 

I wonder how things might have turned out if the government of Northern Ireland had sorted out the discrimination, protected and policed both communities fairly and kept a tight rein on the RUC? 

Of course, prosecuting old soldiers for things that happened because of poor governance fifty years ago is pointless. An inquiry and study of what went wrong would help though. 

What a warped and perverted interpretation of what took place.  The Ulstermen took action against a group of trouble makers who deliberately inflamed an increasing number of self entitled people who hated being in the lower paid jobs because of their life style due to huge families or didn't like not being entitled to vote because of their Eire nationality although quite content to reap the benefits of living in that part of the UK. From THAT all the rest resulted.  When Eire was created as a result of the partition of Ireland there were two huge mistakes made(apart from the creation of Eire itself.

1 There should have been a hard physical border to keep the Free Staters OUT

2The relationship between the UK and Eire should have been that of two nations foreign to each other in every respect.

 

Hopefully BREXIT might correct those mistakes.

[TheTeapot]

1 hour ago, Rog said:

What a warped and perverted interpretation 

says Rog

[Bobbie Bobster]

@TheTeapot Indeed.  I'm amazed he still gets bites with that level of chutzpah.

[Maire]

Wow ok history lesson time..

 

The Fenian movement was started by a member of the Protestant faith not a Catholic therefore to call Catholic people Fenians is technically wrong.

It is fine as a description of the Nationalist population.

 

In 1969 Catholic families where burned out of their homes in what was mixed areas at the time. These families where moved into estates and thes so called ghettos grew.

Given what was happening the UK govt sent the army over to try and regain control for the NI government.

At 1st the army was welcome in the Catholic areas as there was no protection for them at all (at this stage the official IRA was virtually non existent and membership was generally old men with limited access to weapons that were antiquated).

However it became apparent that the army were not the saviours that the Catholic community believed but we're in fact to help the NI govt basically keep the status quo where Catholics were second class citizens.

The Catholic people then turned on the army seeing them now as oppressor's.

At this stage young men started the PIRA as a way of protection of the people who lived in their areas.

 

To say all Catholic people are nationalists is like saying all coloured ppl are rastas.

The NI govt asked the UK govt for interment and they agreed..

A few issues with this...

1 those who they wanted had been tipped off and disappeared.

2the intelligence used was old and tbf useless...the people lifted where not IRA they were instead those who spoke Gaelic and/or members of the GAA.

 

Re Ballymurphy..it was a deprived area but with community who worked together.

It was a travesty/masacre what happened there...

Could it have stopped bloody Sunday? I doubt it because the govt was determined to crack down on the civil rights movement.

Is it worth an inquiry?

Yes... families have the right to have those who were murdered name's cleared.

[Rog]

Typical Eirish.  Keep asking the same question until they get an answer they want irrespective of facts.  If they had kept out of Ulster instead of infiltrating and causing trouble there would have been no trouble.

[P.K.]

12 minutes ago, Maire said:

However it became apparent that the army were not the saviours that the Catholic community believed but we're in fact to help the NI govt basically keep the status quo where Catholics were second class citizens.

The Catholic people then turned on the army seeing them now as oppressor's.

You're not getting away with that one.

The planks were there to stop the sectarian elements from killing each other and burning folks out.

That's not to keep the status quo but to keep the peace by the rule of law. Anyone who thinks otherwise is too thick to realise that change was NEVER going to come from a military solution. It was only ever going to come from a political one.

[Maire]

9 minutes ago, P.K. said:

You're not getting away with that one.

The planks were there to stop the sectarian elements from killing each other and burning folks out.

That's not to keep the status quo but to keep the peace by the rule of law. Anyone who thinks otherwise is too thick to realise that change was NEVER going to come from a military solution. It was only ever going to come from a political one.

The problem was the political system was so loaded against the Catholic population.

The belief was the UK govt and army where there to stop this as well as stopping the burning etc..

This was obviously a mistaken belief but it didn't make it any less real for those affected.

[P.K.]

1 minute ago, Maire said:

The problem was the political system was so loaded against the Catholic population.

The belief was the UK govt and army where there to stop this as well as stopping the burning etc..

This was obviously a mistaken belief but it didn't make it any less real for those affected.

Don't be stupid.

What, the belief was the planks were going to influence Stormont or something?

Ridiculous....