Ballymurphy Massacre Inquest

[Shake me up Judy]

Shouldn't you be in school today, or is it a public holiday ? Perhaps your mum has kept you off.

[RIchard Britten]

4 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Shouldn't you be in school today, or is it a public holiday ? Perhaps your mum has kept you off.

Sorry, did the facts confuse you?  I am sure an adult will sit down and explain them to you if you ask nicely.

[Freggyragh]

1 hour ago, RIchard Britten said:

Ireland during the period 1536–1691 saw the first full conquest of the island by England and its colonisation with Protestant settlers from Great Britain. ... While the English, the Welsh and, later, the Scots accepted Protestantism, the Irish remained Catholic.

You’re going back over three hundred years there - a century before the 1798 rebellion when Protestants and Catholics fought side by side as United Irishmen. Who are you to say that Irish unionists, even the ones that consider themselves ‘British’ today are colonialists when their ancestors who were part of the plantation have been there since long before the Mayflower set sail, whilst many of their ancestors were drawn from the indigenous population, and many others from much more recent immigration. Over three hundred years the populations have inter-married, and otherwise chosen to change religion too, so it is very difficult to guess political allegiances by surname alone. Protestants in Northern Ireland were also, up until hundred years ago just as likely to speak Irish too. 

I don’t think you would say that third or fourth generation Afro-Caribbeans in London, or English people in the Isle of Man were ‘immigrants’. Do you see now how extreme it is to say that unionists in Northern Ireland are ‘colonists’?

 Identity politics, whether it comes from the left, or the right, ‘Irish’ or ‘British’ is very dangerous, and has been a blight on the lives of the people of the North of Ireland and, to a much lesser extent, the people of the West of Scotland, for a long, long time. Pandering to the prejudices of one side over the other is no help at all. 

Don’t forget also, most of these ‘colonists’ you speak of also make up some of the poorest and most marginalised communities in the island of Ireland, living as they are in the economically, politically and socially backward failed statelet of Northern Ireland dependent for the most part on whatever Arlene can shake out of the magic money tree. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Freggyragh

[Shake me up Judy]

Excellent post Freggy.

[Chinahand]

Typical left wing essentialism from RB turning hugely complex and nuanced history to black & white virtue signalling over trendy lefty shibboleths like colonialism. 

[Neil Down]

5 hours ago, RIchard Britten said:

Actually it was an occupation.

shut up you fool

[Neil Down]

4 hours ago, RIchard Britten said:

Sorry, did the facts confuse you?  I am sure an adult will sit down and explain them to you if you ask nicely.

Somebody should sit down with you and administer the meds you are so desperately missing

[Max Power]

14 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

Because the civilian rule of law normally enforced by the police had completely broken down? And we are talking about a colonial power that still clung to the ways that it had ruled empire. You have to remember that it was 47yrs ago.

Think back to the thinking and attitudes of the time. Britain was still getting over, if not hungover from WW2 and the loss of empire. Timewise, 1972 was closer to the last  world war than it is to today.

I watched a news article on the subject this afternoon. Britain had more troops in NI (21k) than they campaigned latterly in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

The army were called in to protect the mainly Catholic population of certain areas from attacks by Protestant gangs. They were welcomed until the IRA, who were at that time an ineffectual and ragged band, were accused of attacks where a British soldier was killed. Enter the Paras who were tasked with flushing out the IRA from estates like Ballymurphy. The IRA had already scarpered but the Commanding Officer, who was a former colonial who had been used to killing the Mao Mao and other innocents in a previous posting, applied the same tactics on British subjects who were innocent of any involvement. They just happened to live on a Catholic estate. After this slaughter, the Paras moved on to 'police' a civil rights march in Londonderry with well known consequences. After this, the army were no longer welcome, the IRA was swamped with recruits seeking revenge. A perfectly justifiable civil rights issue became a guerilla war through the ineptitude of the British government and army! You may have thought that they'd have learned from the mistakes of the Easter Rising and subsequent events with the Black and Tans?    

[RIchard Britten]

17 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

shut up you fool

It was not a war (no declaration) and the Government turned troops on a civilian population in another country.

Hardly rocket science.

 

[RIchard Britten]

17 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

Somebody should sit down with you and administer the meds you are so desperately missing

Damning praise.

[Neil Down]

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

The army were called in to protect the mainly Catholic population of certain areas from attacks by Protestant gangs. They were welcomed until the IRA, who were at that time an ineffectual and ragged band, were accused of attacks where a British soldier was killed. Enter the Paras who were tasked with flushing out the IRA from estates like Ballymurphy. The IRA had already scarpered but the Commanding Officer, who was a former colonial who had been used to killing the Mao Mao and other innocents in a previous posting, applied the same tactics on British subjects who were innocent of any involvement. They just happened to live on a Catholic estate. After this slaughter, the Paras moved on to 'police' a civil rights march in Londonderry with well known consequences. After this, the army were no longer welcome, the IRA was swamped with recruits seeking revenge. A perfectly justifiable civil rights issue became a guerilla war through the ineptitude of the British government and army! You may have thought that they'd have learned from the mistakes of the Easter Rising and subsequent events with the Black and Tans?    

Interesting, any kind of timescales on your flights of fancy?

[Max Power]

3 hours ago, Neil Down said:

Interesting, any kind of timescales on your flights of fancy?

Flights of fancy? August 1971 and January 1972.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Bloody-Sunday-Northern-Ireland-1972

If you have the time, watch this.....

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

Edited March 15, 2019 by Max Power

[Neil Down]

6 hours ago, Max Power said:

The army were called in to protect the mainly Catholic population of certain areas from attacks by Protestant gangs. They were welcomed until the IRA, who were at that time an 1. ineffectual and ragged band, were accused of attacks where a British soldier was killed. Enter the Paras who were tasked with flushing out the IRA from estates like Ballymurphy. The IRA had already scarpered but the 2. Commanding Officer, who was a former colonial who had been used to killing the Mao Mao and other innocents in a previous posting, applied the same tactics on British subjects who were innocent of any involvement. They just happened to live on a Catholic estate. After this slaughter, the Paras moved on to 'police' a civil rights march in Londonderry with well known consequences. After this, the army were no longer welcome, the IRA was swamped with recruits seeking revenge. A perfectly justifiable civil rights issue became a guerilla war through the ineptitude of the British government and army! You may have thought that they'd have learned from the mistakes of the Easter Rising and subsequent events with the Black and Tans?    

1. they were far from ineffectual and ragged

2. what year was this?

Interesting that you have picked just two periods out of the whole 38 year period. What about the innocent civilians and unarmed soldiers murdered by the IRA. Two wrongs will never make a right but unless you were there, don't believe all you read.

[Max Power]

3 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

1. they were far from ineffectual and ragged

2. what year was this?

Interesting that you have picked just two periods out of the whole 38 year period. What about the innocent civilians and unarmed soldiers murdered by the IRA. Two wrongs will never make a right but unless you were there, don't believe all you read.

They certainly were more effectual and had an awful lot more support after these two incidents in 71 and early 72. 

These are not two periods chosen at random, they were the catalyst for all that happened afterwards and the escalation of violence. I am not a supporter of the IRA or terrorism, my family were from the other side, staunch Orangemen but even before the troubles, were disgusted at the way catholics were treated in Northern Ireland and had many Catholic friends.

The murder of soldiers and civilians is unforgivable but the action of the governments escalated the trouble, I don't blame the paras, they were trained to kill, that was their job which they are trained to do, they should never have been sent in, it was like releasing a pack of wolves. Likewise the killings gave a cause to psychopaths and gangsters on both sides of the divide.  

 

[Neil Down]

48 minutes ago, Max Power said:

They certainly were more effectual and had an awful lot more support after these two incidents in 71 and early 72. 

These are not two periods chosen at random, they were the catalyst for all that happened afterwards and the escalation of violence. I am not a supporter of the IRA or terrorism, my family were from the other side, staunch Orangemen but even before the troubles, were disgusted at the way catholics were treated in Northern Ireland and had many Catholic friends.

The murder of soldiers and civilians is unforgivable but the action of the governments escalated the trouble, I don't blame the paras, they were trained to kill, that was their job which they are trained to do, they should never have been sent in, it was like releasing a pack of wolves. Likewise the killings gave a cause to psychopaths and gangsters on both sides of the divide.  

 

On that point I will agree Max. It needed a spark and unfortunately they were given it. Unemployment also played a major part and fell right into the hands of the criminal elements of the IRA who jumped on it with glee.