The 'Trans' Issue.

[display name]

4 minutes ago, Skychie said:

I could go on, but it poses the question about "the issue". And that's....is there an issue if you don't make it an issue?. Most people who have an issue with it are the ones who create the issue in the first place

But what if the issue of the issue is quite an issue?

Edited January 22, 2020 by display name

[pongo]

On 1/19/2020 at 11:06 AM, wrighty said:

 My dad wasn’t a bigot of any sort, he’d just grown up through an era ...  Progressive youngsters need to accept that they can’t change the way previous generations feel

My grandmother didn't like Catholics. And she had a friend who, in the 1970s, still called someone in Douglas a 'dirty Jew'.

But that's ok right? It's just the era they were from. Can't change how they feel. Right? 

Edited January 22, 2020 by pongo

[Neil Down]

On 1/19/2020 at 8:46 PM, Grounds Keeper Willy said:

The irony meter is heading off the scale. 

Always does following your postings

[wrighty]

3 hours ago, pongo said:

My grandmother didn't like Catholics. And she had a friend who, in the 1970s, still called someone in Douglas a 'dirty Jew'.

But that's ok right? It's just the era they were from. Can't change how they feel. Right? 

You can't change how people 'feel'.  You may change how they behave, or speak, but if someone has had decades of indoctrination from childhood that something is wrong, or dangerous etc, they're never going to 'feel' comfortable about things.  And when challenged and under stress it's often feelings that dominate thoughts rather than rationality.

So your grandmother's friend may have been able to stop referring to people as 'dirty jews' in public, and even realise that those thoughts were not right, but his/her underlying attitude would probably not change.  It's probably not OK, but that's the way it is.

[Chinahand]

What can I add to this conversation.  Not sure really.

A large proportion of these issues seem to relate to behaviour and what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour within a society.

As a reasonably affluent, white, heterosexual male with liberal views but conservative behaviours I'm aware there is a huge gulf in my experiences and understandings.

You've got to tread carefully in these types of issues, and there is no doubt in this intersectional time, where emotion and status signalling are to the fore, these can be a lot of heat and noise generated if you say the wrong thing!

At its most fundamental I don't really believe in essences and categories - they are all the experientially formed outputs of evolved neural networks with no absolute (or supernatural) underpinning.

Most people with an XY chromosomes have penises, but some don't.  Most people with XX chromosomes have vaginas, but some don't.

Most people with XY chromosomes are happy to behave within the cultural norms of masculine behaviour, some don't, and the cultural norms of masculine behaviour change depending on place and time.

Ditto for XX chromosomes and behaviours.

But not everyone has XY or XX chromosomes, some have more, some have less, and there are ways that the influence these chromosomes can have can be reduced - see Lyonisation, or look at a Calico Cat.  Biology is complex and defies simple categories.

There is no essential characteristic or behaviour that can be used to classify all people as either men or women, and when people claim there are essential characteristics behaviours all men or all women should (or should not) exhibit we are into the realm, not of reality, but of ideology.

      There’s nowt as queer as folk.

All the world’s queer save thee and me,

And even thee’s a little queer.      

There’s nowt as queer as folk.

Thars only thee and me that’s sane

And I’m not too sure of thee.

It is useful to categorise people by biological sex as either men or women; and to presume certain characteristics and behaviours of people so categorised, but your presumptions will not be universal.

It is simple reality that there are exceptions to the binary of men and women, male and female, both in external characteristics and in behaviours; and when it comes to the internal characteristics of organs as nuanced as the brain our understanding of how its form and resulting function subtly change under the influence of genes and environment is woefully lacking.

I recently came across this post on the China Channel:

Perverse Pasts and Queer Futures in Taiwan

I am fascinated by Taiwan - in political; colonial; racial; and sexual and gender terms its society defies simple categorisation.

Queer studies provides an interesting lens to think about society and how it categorises some things as acceptable and somethings not.

A part of me is also interested in the concept of acting out a role, or a behaviour - straight acting, acting white etc.

We are "meant" to act out certain gender roles, and when we don't suffer social opprobrium.  

I'm fascinated by the meaning of honesty in such interpretations of behaviour.  Shakespeare has Polonius say:

This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

The Daoist in me wonders about how this is ever possible; and how putting on a dress or a pair of trousers and behaving a certain way relates to truth!

 

[Chinahand]

The court saying the Police overreacted over Harry Miller’s tweets and the recent kuffuffle over Rebecca Long Bailey’s endorsement of a Labour Trans charter is keeping these issues live.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51465800

I definitely don’t think it is a hate crime to have the opinion that a person’s sex does not change because they actually, or want to, cut off or add a penis and take some hormones.  

Such an opinion may miss out multiple nuances but it isn’t a crime. 
 

 

[quilp]

It's little wonder there's so much confusion.

 

On 2/15/2020 at 10:46 AM, Chinahand said:

The court saying the Police overreacted over Harry Miller’s tweets and the recent kuffuffle over Rebecca Long Bailey’s endorsement of a Labour Trans charter is keeping these issues live.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51465800

I definitely don’t think it is a hate crime to have the opinion that a person’s sex does not change because they actually, or want to, cut off or add a penis and take some hormones.  

Such an opinion may miss out multiple nuances but it isn’t a crime.

Great post. 

[Shake me up Judy]

Last week's The Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4 gave this one a good airing. I liked the contribution of Graham Linehan.

[quilp]

Cheers, I'll give that a listen.

[quilp]

1 hour ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Last week's The Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4 gave this one a good airing. I liked the contribution of Graham Linehan.

Yes, thanks for that. Portillo was also good.

What concerns me is the very small percentage of people who define themselves as 'trans.' The issue has been hijacked by fringe groups seeking exposure for their own ideological stance. I used to have a lot of respect for the Terence Higgins Trust, it persevered, in the face of bigotry and oppression for gay rights and sexual equality, especially with the HIV/AIDS issue, to bring about change and that homosexuality is 'normal.' It should never have involved itself in this. I don't think trans pressure groups do any favours to the gay community.

Linehan, speaking of the Tavistock clinic for dysphoric kids; the dark in-joke amongst the staff about, "at this rate there'll be no gay people left" was interesting. Also, It was only a matter of time before the accusation of nazism and eugenics was used in an attempt to shut him up.

Something needs to be done to protect biologically-defined (those who I would term 'real') women.' This denial of a biological truth, and the demonisation of those who do not agree with trans ideology should be properly discussed on a national level.

Trans women should not be allowed in female prisons or women's refuges either. Or sports, for that matter. It's a ridiculous and dangerous notion in many respects.

Edited February 24, 2020 by quilp

[quilp]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/22/ssweden-teenage-transgender-row-dysphoria-diagnoses-soar

 

[Chinahand]

 

[Chinahand]

Resurrection to pass on a really good, if long, article on the biology of sex and why eggs and sperm is a constant while x chromosomes y chromosomes etc are inconstant associations  - and how non of this has much of a relationship with attempting to classify every living thing as belong exclusively to one sex or another.  Life ain't like that.  It's far more complex:

https://aeon.co/essays/the-existence-of-biological-sex-is-no-constraint-on-human-diversity

[Chinahand]

So, a supreme court nominee can't do it.  How would you define a woman?

[Declan]

In my life I don’t need to “define who’s a woman” so I think it is best to work on the basis that if someone says they are a woman they are a woman. 
 

Obviously some role holders don’t have that luxury.