The 'Trans' Issue.

[Chinahand]

The corollary question is if the swimming association changed its criteria would that affect her status. 

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/university-of-arizona-swimmers-write-letter-to-ncaa-on-lia-thomas/

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, Chinahand said:

The central issue in this discussion seems to be whether there are objective criteria that defines a woman or man: or, in this context, if the simple declaration that a person is a particular sex is sufficient. 

A sporting organisation etc may set certain criteria to allow a person compete in a given class but these criteria do not define the sex of the person. 

Helix is it your view that Lia Thomas was a woman the moment she declared this irrespective of morphology or hormone status. If not what is it that allows you to say she is a woman?

I am not trolling here I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion and understand meaning can radically change compared to historical understanding. 

 

2 hours ago, Chinahand said:

The corollary question is if the swimming association changed its criteria would that affect her status. 

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/university-of-arizona-swimmers-write-letter-to-ncaa-on-lia-thomas/

China, part of the problem, for you, seems, to me, to be your confused and confusing use of the word sex. Also your insistence on using man woman. In terms of the Trans issue you need more precision.

If you, and others used more precise language, half the difficulty, at least, disappears.

Why can’t you use genetic male or female to define genetically. Are you  proposing that gender should be genetically defined and immutable, or just genetic maleness or femaleness? 

That then leads on to eligibility criteria.  I don’t pretend to know the answer. But I’m happy to leave it to the sport governing bodies, their medical advisors and competitors.

Changing her eligibility doesn’t change her genotype or her gender. Just her ability to compete as the opposite gender to her genetics.

But you still haven’t started to answer the question of those with XO, XXY, or developmental differences, environmental, hormonal or endocrinal.

Are they to be allowed exceptions, or excluded. If they are allowed exceptions,  where is the difference for trans. If excluded how does this interplay with protected characteristics in equality legislation?

Apart from setting criteria for recognition of gender change, and birth certificate change, and protecting trans people from disadvantage and discrimination, I believe the state should stay out of the debate. It’s then up to organisations to set their rules, and for them to be tested/challenged by those who believe they’re non compliant. Especially when it’s a balance between two, or more, rights.

 

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

The central issue in this discussion seems to be whether there are objective criteria that defines a woman or man: or, in this context, if the simple declaration that a person is a particular sex is sufficient. 

A sporting organisation etc may set certain criteria to allow a person compete in a given class but these criteria do not define the sex of the person. 

Helix is it your view that Lia Thomas was a woman the moment she declared this irrespective of morphology or hormone status. If not what is it that allows you to say she is a woman?

I am not trolling here I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion and understand meaning can radically change compared to historical understanding. 

I think the difficulty here is that there is not just one meaning of "woman". So here's my view:

Yes Lia Thomas was a woman (the gender identity) as soon as she said she was. 

Lia Thomas qualified to compete in women's sports as soon as her hormone levels met the requirements. This is not "being a woman". 

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

The corollary question is if the swimming association changed its criteria would that affect her status. 

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/university-of-arizona-swimmers-write-letter-to-ncaa-on-lia-thomas/

It would affect her ability to compete in women's swimming. It would have no bearing on her gender identity. 

[John Wright]

@Chinahand just remember “sex” is what coal arrives in at posh households in South east England and South Africa.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't know if I'm missing the point of the conversation but with what someone mentioned before, I do think that if someone is genetically and, therefore, in the vast majority of instances, anatomically male then I can't thinking that it doesn't seem right that the person should be accepted to compete in matches of strength (and physical endurance, maybe?) against cis-women.

If that person has the advantage of a bodily development that would confer an advantage then it does seem a difficult matter to consider and decide.

 

[HeliX]

23 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

If that person has the advantage of a bodily development that would confer an advantage

Therein lies the question. In Lia Thomas' case, her times dropped by the amount you would expect the difference between a good male athlete and a good female athlete. Is that a guarantee that it's fair? No, probably not. But I don't think anyone can be sure it's unfair either.

It's certainly a tricky issue, and like I mentioned before, if your end-goal is for sports to be entirely "fair" then you end up wondering whether you should allow people with any sort of genetic "abnormality" like Michael Phelps... he didn't earn his natural advantage, and someone who put in equal work without that advantage won't beat him. Is that fair? Certainly not. Do we do anything about it? Well, I doubt it.

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I don't know if I'm missing the point of the conversation but with what someone mentioned before, I do think that if someone is genetically and, therefore, in the vast majority of instances, anatomically male then I can't thinking that it doesn't seem right that the person should be accepted to compete in matches of strength (and physical endurance, maybe?) against cis-women.

If that person has the advantage of a bodily development that would confer an advantage then it does seem a difficult matter to consider and decide.

 

And that introduces the timeline issue. Lots of trans kids take puberty blockers before hormones and surgery, so mtf never go through male puberty and so they don’t develop strength and endurance and ftm go through male puberty once on T and then they do “bulk up”

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't think it is down to them though, is it?

If the rules and systems are those which are wrongfully discriminatory then it's a legal problem but also a moral and ethical one.

[John Wright]

44 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I don't think it is down to them though, is it?

If the rules and systems are those which are wrongfully discriminatory then it's a legal problem but also a moral and ethical one.

Of course it’s down to the sport governing bodies. However they must act legally within the law of the land, on fairness and equality, and gender recognition.

And then there are the external pressures from the public, other competitors, campaigners, reflecting public opinion, moral and ethical views. ( note public opinion needn’t have any moral or ethical component ).

When they all connect - all is well with the world. When there is a disconnect you get protest, controversy, political interference, and ultimately court intervention.

[Chinahand]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:07 PM, HeliX said:

Lia Thomas ... went through the medical system for several years of treatment etc starting in 2019. Prior to this she was in the top 30-40 or so in the country, competing as a man. 6th fastest in the 1,000 yards freestyle. After starting HRT, she continued to compete in the men's division and did poorly - her times increased by 5-7%, which is generally accepted as about the difference between men's and women's times in the events she competes in (500 yards, 1650 yards) anyway.

Trying to analyse these issues is really complex and there is a lot of data available.  Looking just at two 500 yard races - the men's and women's 500 yard NCAA Finals - there is about a 10-11% difference between a man and a similarly ranked women.

Lia Thomas does seem to be a bit of an outlier. If Lia was the 30-40th ranked men's swimmer prior to any hormonal treatment, it would seem reasonable to say she should be the 30-40th ranked women's swimmer, not the 1st ranked with a speed at the top end of what you'd expect from comparing what would be predicted by comparing her with other swimmers.

 

[The Phantom]

'Emily' who has a penis and was a promising junior cyclist will be competing this week against Laura Kenny at the Derby Velodrome this week.  Could be interesting. 

[Declan]

1 minute ago, The Phantom said:

'Emily' 

Why the quotations around the name? Aren't people allowed to chose their names?

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Trying to analyse these issues is really complex and there is a lot of data available.  Looking just at two 500 yard races - the men's and women's 500 yard NCAA Finals - there is about a 10-11% difference between a man and a similarly ranked women.

Lia Thomas does seem to be a bit of an outlier. If Lia was the 30-40th ranked men's swimmer prior to any hormonal treatment, it would seem reasonable to say she should be the 30-40th ranked women's swimmer, not the 1st ranked with a speed at the top end of what you'd expect from comparing what would be predicted by comparing her with other swimmers.

The gap is bigger in the 500 yards, yes. Accounting for the fact that Lia Thomas' strong men's competition times were pre-prime you would expect some improvement. Pre-transition she was 10seconds behind the male record, post-transition she's 10 seconds behind the female record...

It looks broadly consistent with what you'd expect.

For 1600m:

 

Lia pre-transition: 14:54.765

Lia post-transition: 15:59.71

Male record: 14:12.08 (Kieran Smith)

Female record: 15:03:31 (Katie Ledecky)

Was 40 seconds behind male record, is now 56 seconds behind female record...

[Chinahand]

I do wonder what a Duckworth-Lewis calc would look-like for various swimmers - the data is probably there.  If at 15 they were 200th ranked what range might they have at 21.

Helix, I think you are comparing times when Lia was different ages (and on different hormones) with absolute records when people are at maturity.

That approach compresses a lot of the available information.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Chinahand