The 'Trans' Issue.

[quilp]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:05 PM, John Wright said:

S/he has a very chequered history

A bit like this fella. Inadvertently gasped at the headline...

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/

😲

[quilp]

Best news of the day?

The Tavistock Clinic closing.

Woop-woop!

[Passing Time]

48 minutes ago, quilp said:

Best news of the day?

The Tavistock Clinic closing.

Woop-woop!

not before bloody time...

[quilp]

I wonder who'll be up next to tell us how awful it all is..?

😄

[quilp]

Excellent piece from a Guardian columnist here. It's a pity it took so long before action was taken.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/31/dont-buy-stonewall-line-gender-identity-cant-sack-you-now

Thought it worth posting the last paragraph as it has punch...

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by quilp

[Chinahand]

https://youtu.be/euqEEN8W_Kw

More nuanced than modern sensibilities assume. 

[Max Power]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:50 PM, quilp said:

A bit like this fella. Inadvertently gasped at the headline...

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/

😲

Actually quite frightening that serious, professionally led organisations, full of academics who are otherwise respected, well paid and trusted, can be such complete idiots! 

This is an astounding example of how otherwise intelligent people are incapable of applying any common sense. Any group making life changing or earth shattering decisions of any sort should be led by someone with sense, not necessarily a Phd holder, quite obviously!

[John Wright]

I think it’s sad that the polarised extremes in the sex/gender debate, whether it is psychiatric, psychological, medical, or just “common sense” spend so long castigating each other, attacking those who are gender non conforming, and generally screwing things up for the vast majority.

It seems to start with confusion between sex (which, mainly, is biologically immutable ) and gender ( which is a social construct and isn’t immutable ).

It then seems to go on to confuse and conflate dysmorphia and dysphoria in sex and gender. 

Even the language still makes the problem worse. We’ve moved on from sex change to gender reassignment surgery, as an example. But, if gender is an expression of a state of mind, whether that’s genetic, environmental, choice or an illness, ( and I’m not bothered which it is, we had the same debates, until recently, in relation to homosexuality, and it’s currently unanswerable ) then surgical or drug intervention can only ever be gender affirming.

Perhaps the mistake Stonewall have made, by trying so hard to be inclusionary, has been to assume that the same tactics they applied in relation to equality and acceptance in LGB matters was extensible to Trans matters. And of course Stonewall tactics and approach changed over the years. But I fear that, at least in part, is driven by a funding crisis. They’ve achieved their original aims, it’s gone from a small pressure group with lots of volunteers, and very few paid employees, into a large business with employees. A bit like is alleged against our CS they have to find ways to stay in post and justify themselves.

Of course the debate also uses extreme minority within minority cases to justify extreme solutions. And the reality is shades, and human, and, like sexuality, probably a continuum.

I despair. 

Im also sure that if someone has gender dysphoria, transitions to pass as another gender, that they may also have dysmorphia and want the medical, or surgical, suppression, reduction, enhancement or removal of the parts their mind rejects.

I think the reductio in absurdam of the safe spaces argument used by TERF’s is not justified. But I also think that self certification of gender transition is less than satisfactory.

But, a system that has seen an increase in demand from 138 to 2,500+ referrals a year over the last decade, and waiting times for first referral go to 2 years, is grossly in dereliction of care. One which results in a huge self harm, suicide and mental health case load.

Ive no idea, I’m not trans, of the anguish of going through puberty, when it could be delayed, whilst you wait, and wait, if you’ve got dysphoria or dysmorphia. I’ve no idea what damage the puberty blockers do, if someone wants to de transition.

Likewise I’ve no idea why there’s been such an increase, or why local CAMHS services aren’t  trying to treat the dysmorphia and just push it on to Tavistock. That being said I’m not sure how you actually distinguish dysmorphia and dysphoria except in extreme cases.

[Chie]

10 hours ago, quilp said:

Excellent piece from a Guardian columnist here. It's a pity it took so long before action was taken.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/31/dont-buy-stonewall-line-gender-identity-cant-sack-you-now

Thought it worth posting the last paragraph as it has punch...

 

She isn't really someone you should consider as being an authoritative voice on the subject. Lots of the same tired old tropes being re hashed in yet another article.

1. When she means scientific fact. She means biology. As I have stated before, no trans person is denying biology. No one is saying there is no such thing as a biological woman. No one is denying their own genetics and biology. What we do acknowledge however, is that biology is more complex than just male/female in the commonly thought of traditional sense, and that a persons sense of identity goes beyond what "bits" they have in their pants.  XX and XY alone do not make you male or female. For instance, the SRY gene being present on the Y chromosome is what makes someone male. Consequently, the SRY gene can mutate in an XX variant and create an XX male. Add in a shit load of other variants that are now thought to affect 1/300 people. Thats a lot. Your own wife, husband or partner could be genetically the same sex as you and you would never know. The extreme ends of the DSD spectrum will produce, for instance, a female who is capable of reproduction, who is genetically a man. Short of testing every single trans persons karyotype, analysing their brain structure, thought patterns etc etc . You can not ascertain from looks alone who or what someone is. Or, whether transgenderism is or is not a valid thing. This is the problem with the gender critics, they overly simplify everything.

2. I always love the phrase "sexist stereotypes". They never really elaborate on it beyond "Wearing female clothes, having a higher pitched voice, effecting mannerisms and wearing cute t shirts". Usually cherry picking their examples from the selection of trans people that like to wear cute cat hoodies. Where as the reality is that all trans people are as different form each other as they are from anyone else. There isn't one unified way that we all agreed on to exist. There isn't a "How to be trans guide" that states "When being trans, one must effect a slightly bent hand when sitting and whilst in conversation it is essential to lisp. Only then can you exceed your own expectations at stereotyping an entire group of people". Most trans people I know are perfectly normal human beings who don't particularly adhere to any specific way of being beyond what makes them feel comfortable. No different than anyone else. If we start going down this road then we might as well start throwing the phrase "sexist stereotype" at everyone. Man checks out a nice girl, sexist stereotype. Man puts on aftershave and a shirt, sexist stereotype. Woman puts on a dress and lipstick and walks down the road with a spring in her step, sexist stereotype. Woman meets group of friends for coffee and chats about her life, kids and partner, sexist stereotype.

3. I wouldn't say the charities involved are corrosive. Not on the LGBTQIA+ side anyway. Stonewall is an amazing charity that has done a lot for the community. On the other side however, we have the LGB Alliance. A charity ran by 90% straight people, who masquerade as a LGB rights organisation that has done precisely fuck and all for LGB people and spends most of its time whining on about the evils of trans people. Take the recent Taliban take over of Afghanistan. What was the LGBA doing?, crying on twitter, hosting conferences to tell women how evil trans people are, lobbying government to remove trans rights, whining about unisex toilets being a thing (even though they have been a thing for decades) and generally pratting around trying to convince everyone that they actually care about LGB people. Where was Stonewall?, evacuating LGBTQIA+ Afghans who were fleeing the country in fear of their life. Big difference.

4. The closure of Tavistock is being hyped up by these people as being some great win for the gender critics. What they are all glossing over is that its being replaced by around 11 regional clinics to help cut down the ridiculous waiting times that Tavistock had and ensure that full care is given to all those who are seeking help with their gender identity. You won't find that in a gender critics article because that doesn't fit their narrative that this is a win for them. It's not, it's a win for trans youth as they will get the proper care that they need. The issues with Tavistock wasn't due to their being some nefarious underhanded plan to "trans the worlds youth". It was the sheer size of the waiting list, causing the clinic to not be able to cope and having to (wrongly) adopt a model of "in and out". These new clinics will really help trans youth in ensuring that they make the right choices in regards to their transition (see attached clips).

5. Bigots?. Abso-fucking-lutely. I don't care who disagrees with me saying this but fuck...those....people. We have Posie (Dozy) Parker advocating for men with guns to patrol womens toilets (Utterly hilarious given the narrative they are trying to push). JK Rowling trying to convince people that we are all major sex pests who are just in it for the raping. Joanna (QC not  really qualified) Cherry rehashing the same stories of the handful of trans people who did a bad thing over and over again. The Daily Fail and most other media outlets portraying trans people in the worst possible light, twisting facts and outright lying and many more popping up each day. The government making a huge thing about unisex toilets in regards to the dangers of trans people, even though unisex toilets have been around for ages. What is starting to amount to a re introduction of Section 28 with comments by the candidates being made about "protecting youth" from LGBTIQIA+ material. The UK has become the new Russia. Fuck those people and fuck them hard. We are not punching bags for the idiotic right to hit down on.

The whole thing is insane and nuts. No one wants to sit down and just talk about it. The accusations being thrown at trans women are horrific and disgusting. All based on an imaginary predator that exists inside these peoples heads. And here is the best bit, they claim that cis male rapists are going to dress up as women to invade toilets and do nasty things. But, why would they do that when they can just say "Im a trans man who was assigned female at birth" and gain access to the exact same space. The latter isn't happening which is much easier and simpler, so why is the former so feared?.

[The Voice of Reason]

Slightly less intellectual.

Re all the discussions surrounding the LGBT + community.

Most right thinking people ( and I include myself in that) acknowledge  if that’s the the absolute equal rights of these sections of society.

(Some may find the “trans” bit a bit worrisome but put that aside for a minute.)

This may not be the right place to raise this but here goes.

Drag queens.

I find them a bit unsettling. Men dressed as women ( which is not the unsettling bit) but with suggestive names, for example one promoting himself as “Dusty Crack” in Bernidorm, ( Bargain loving Brits in the sun) and all the crude innuendos they come out with.

I would have thought this was demeaning to women but apparently most don’t object.

I see parallels with the old Black and White Minstrel show, white men dressing up as black men and singing the likes of “Ole Man River”.

Both those and drag queens trouble me.

You may say well don’t watch them if you don’t like them but that doesn’t make it go away like not watching (for example on You Tube the slaughter of sea life by the Faroe Islanders)

Am I alone in my unease about drag queens?

 

 

 

[John Wright]

11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Slightly less intellectual.

Re all the discussions surrounding the LGBT + community.

Most right thinking people ( and I include myself in that) acknowledge  if that’s the the absolute equal rights of these sections of society.

(Some may find the “trans” bit a bit worrisome but put that aside for a minute.)

This may not be the right place to raise this but here goes.

Drag queens.

I find them a bit unsettling. Men dressed as women ( which is not the unsettling bit) but with suggestive names, for example one promoting himself as “Dusty Crack” in Bernidorm, ( Bargain loving Brits in the sun) and all the crude innuendos they come out with.

I would have thought this was demeaning to women but apparently most don’t object.

I see parallels with the old Black and White Minstrel show, white men dressing up as black men and singing the likes of “Ole Man River”.

Both those and drag queens trouble me.

You may say well don’t watch them if you don’t like them but that doesn’t make it go away like not watching (for example on You Tube the slaughter of sea life by the Faroe Islanders)

Am I alone in my unease about drag queens?

 

 

 

Apart from the historic fact of women on stage being played by men until the C17, and panto dames ( and principal boys ) and the fact that drag is a working class music hall ( ie pubs with concert halls, not the Good Old Days genteel travesty ) coarse and bawdy tradition, just like lots of Shakespeare.

Doesn't concern me at all.

Theres no pretence of being a woman. There’s no denigration. It’s a man playing a man playing a fish wife. It’s like the Lord of Misrule.

I had the privilege of seeing Mrs Shufflewick in the East End, 45 years ago. Coarsest language I’ve ever been exposed to. 

As for the names, it’s deprecating as well as lewd. And it’s just an extension of double entendre.

You'll have to join me at the Trocks. The drag ballet troupe. You’ll probably have a heart attack at the ballerina’s names.

Do you have the same worries about drag kings

[Chinahand]

We can all get very earnest but the simple issue is that people are complex and there's nowt as queer as folk. 

We live in an age which is uncomfortable with certain forms of caricaturing ridiculing humour despite the clear evidence over literally centuries (Punch cartoons of the Prince Regent anyone) that such tropes are not only entertaining but also thought provocative and widen the social space. 

Drag fits perfectly within this tradition playing with, exaggerating & extenuating the worst stereotypes of femininity with a typical male sexism to create something... well entertaining provoking disturbing fun silly challenging. 

Long may it continue. 

My main misunderstanding with trans issues is trying to understand the focus on biological organs and replacing them with fakes crudely carved into flesh or filled with silicone - this is not real. To me it is the essence of fake and deception: the opposite of an openness and understanding of nuance which I hope I can understand better. 

Nothing intrinsically exists other than the Dao 道 and our flawed attempts to develop associations and explanations about it which inevitably are incomplete disruptions of its whole.   But biological sex is a useful concept. The words men and women, male & female, masculine & feminine are meaningful. There is huge overlap within these terms but also genuine difference and some aspects of our society usefully uses the extremes of these differences. Males & females differ in skills and what is merely difficult for one can be exceptional for the other, hence divisions in sports etc. 

There has to be a place for trans athletes in sports but this mustn't pretend real differences don't matter or don't confer an unfair advantage. Denying that is counter productive. 

On spaces I'm pretty liberal. Behave with decorum and with empathy towards others using the space and I think all genders and sexes can get along. Behave inappropriately and you will be asked to leave. Surely this is a reasonable compromise? All spaces need to consider safeguarding and the consequences if things go wrong and I don't think this prohibits single sex spaces and there having a reasonable compromise with trans.  

Hey ho all too earnest... Here's to Mrs Doughtfire, "being a lady", and the shocking entertainment of Ricky Gervais as well as empathy and nuance in dealing with all the complexity people and society brings. 

[Chinahand]

I hope this is a useful contribution to the debate. 

https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/what-is-a-woman-anyway

 

[quilp]

Thanks for that China, very interesting, as is the comments section. Shame that most posters won't read it. Big fan of Shermer's. 

[quilp]

14 hours ago, Chie said:

She isn't really someone you should consider as being an authoritative voice on the subject. Lots of the same tired old tropes being re hashed in yet another article.

1. When she means scientific fact. She means biology. As I have stated before, no trans person is denying biology. No one is saying there is no such thing as a biological woman. No one is denying their own genetics and biology. What we do acknowledge however, is that biology is more complex than just male/female in the commonly thought of traditional sense, and that a persons sense of identity goes beyond what "bits" they have in their pants.  XX and XY alone do not make you male or female. For instance, the SRY gene being present on the Y chromosome is what makes someone male. Consequently, the SRY gene can mutate in an XX variant and create an XX male. Add in a shit load of other variants that are now thought to affect 1/300 people. Thats a lot. Your own wife, husband or partner could be genetically the same sex as you and you would never know. The extreme ends of the DSD spectrum will produce, for instance, a female who is capable of reproduction, who is genetically a man. Short of testing every single trans persons karyotype, analysing their brain structure, thought patterns etc etc . You can not ascertain from looks alone who or what someone is. Or, whether transgenderism is or is not a valid thing. This is the problem with the gender critics, they overly simplify everything.

2. I always love the phrase "sexist stereotypes". They never really elaborate on it beyond "Wearing female clothes, having a higher pitched voice, effecting mannerisms and wearing cute t shirts". Usually cherry picking their examples from the selection of trans people that like to wear cute cat hoodies. Where as the reality is that all trans people are as different form each other as they are from anyone else. There isn't one unified way that we all agreed on to exist. There isn't a "How to be trans guide" that states "When being trans, one must effect a slightly bent hand when sitting and whilst in conversation it is essential to lisp. Only then can you exceed your own expectations at stereotyping an entire group of people". Most trans people I know are perfectly normal human beings who don't particularly adhere to any specific way of being beyond what makes them feel comfortable. No different than anyone else. If we start going down this road then we might as well start throwing the phrase "sexist stereotype" at everyone. Man checks out a nice girl, sexist stereotype. Man puts on aftershave and a shirt, sexist stereotype. Woman puts on a dress and lipstick and walks down the road with a spring in her step, sexist stereotype. Woman meets group of friends for coffee and chats about her life, kids and partner, sexist stereotype.

3. I wouldn't say the charities involved are corrosive. Not on the LGBTQIA+ side anyway. Stonewall is an amazing charity that has done a lot for the community. On the other side however, we have the LGB Alliance. A charity ran by 90% straight people, who masquerade as a LGB rights organisation that has done precisely fuck and all for LGB people and spends most of its time whining on about the evils of trans people. Take the recent Taliban take over of Afghanistan. What was the LGBA doing?, crying on twitter, hosting conferences to tell women how evil trans people are, lobbying government to remove trans rights, whining about unisex toilets being a thing (even though they have been a thing for decades) and generally pratting around trying to convince everyone that they actually care about LGB people. Where was Stonewall?, evacuating LGBTQIA+ Afghans who were fleeing the country in fear of their life. Big difference.

4. The closure of Tavistock is being hyped up by these people as being some great win for the gender critics. What they are all glossing over is that its being replaced by around 11 regional clinics to help cut down the ridiculous waiting times that Tavistock had and ensure that full care is given to all those who are seeking help with their gender identity. You won't find that in a gender critics article because that doesn't fit their narrative that this is a win for them. It's not, it's a win for trans youth as they will get the proper care that they need. The issues with Tavistock wasn't due to their being some nefarious underhanded plan to "trans the worlds youth". It was the sheer size of the waiting list, causing the clinic to not be able to cope and having to (wrongly) adopt a model of "in and out". These new clinics will really help trans youth in ensuring that they make the right choices in regards to their transition (see attached clips).

5. Bigots?. Abso-fucking-lutely. I don't care who disagrees with me saying this but fuck...those....people. We have Posie (Dozy) Parker advocating for men with guns to patrol womens toilets (Utterly hilarious given the narrative they are trying to push). JK Rowling trying to convince people that we are all major sex pests who are just in it for the raping. Joanna (QC not  really qualified) Cherry rehashing the same stories of the handful of trans people who did a bad thing over and over again. The Daily Fail and most other media outlets portraying trans people in the worst possible light, twisting facts and outright lying and many more popping up each day. The government making a huge thing about unisex toilets in regards to the dangers of trans people, even though unisex toilets have been around for ages. What is starting to amount to a re introduction of Section 28 with comments by the candidates being made about "protecting youth" from LGBTIQIA+ material. The UK has become the new Russia. Fuck those people and fuck them hard. We are not punching bags for the idiotic right to hit down on.

The whole thing is insane and nuts. No one wants to sit down and just talk about it. The accusations being thrown at trans women are horrific and disgusting. All based on an imaginary predator that exists inside these peoples heads. And here is the best bit, they claim that cis male rapists are going to dress up as women to invade toilets and do nasty things. But, why would they do that when they can just say "Im a trans man who was assigned female at birth" and gain access to the exact same space. The latter isn't happening which is much easier and simpler, so why is the former so feared?.

There is so much wrong with this 'right on' post. Not that I can be arsed challenging it.

Anyway, the dysmorphic adults can be what they want, it's the experimentation with children which causes my conflict.

Are you a parent, Chie?

Stonewall is such an "amazing charity" that its patronage is dropping off rapidly. LGB Alliance, a charity run by mostly heterosexuals (is it? Link?), demonised by you because it's obviously bad for the cause yet its patronage slowly rises annually.

Fuck it...