The 'Trans' Issue.

[Chie]

17 hours ago, wrighty said:

0.049% - still a small percentage, but 100x higher than you quote. It's about 1 in every 2000

You say 1/2000, so this whole hate train against trans people is justified on the basis of 1/2000? What about the other 1999? There are literally thousands of cisgendered heterosexual men who are ACTUALLY following women into toilets and sexually assaulting them, and worse, and all anyone seems to give a fig about is that 1/2000.

Trans people are said to make up about 0.5-1% of the population. So taking the larger number that makes the population in the UK about 67,500,000 as of 2022.

So that's, 675,000 trans people in the UK, take of the 30 you get what, 674970 trans people that AREN'T causing an issue.

The whole thing is manufactured BS. Yes, some trans people do a bad thing, but there's more you cisgendered heterosexuals out there raping far more women than any trans person has done.

Does that make it okay to start calling you all rapists and asking that you stay away from women and children from now on?

Edited February 14, 2023 by Chie

[Max Power]

6 hours ago, Chie said:

You say 1/2000, so this whole hate train against trans people is justified on the basis of 1/2000? What about the other 1999? There are literally thousands of cisgendered heterosexual men who are ACTUALLY following women into toilets and sexually assaulting them, and worse, and all anyone seems to give a fig about is that 1/2000.

Trans people are said to make up about 0.5-1% of the population. So taking the larger number that makes the population in the UK about 67,500,000 as of 2022.

So that's, 675,000 trans people in the UK, take of the 30 you get what, 674970 trans people that AREN'T causing an issue.

The whole thing is manufactured BS. Yes, some trans people do a bad thing, but there's more you cisgendered heterosexuals out there raping far more women than any trans person has done.

Does that make it okay to start calling you all rapists and asking that you stay away from women and children from now on?

I don’t think anyone would argue that men could follow women into changing rooms or toilets and rape them, I am not sure it’s happening at the rate you suggest though?

I imagine the issue is that women may feel uncomfortable or compromised by the presence of a man in these areas? It’s an issue for women to argue about rather than men. I personally won’t be affected and can’t speak for those who would be!

[The Phantom]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I don’t think anyone would argue that men could follow women into changing rooms or toilets and rape them, I am not sure it’s happening at the rate you suggest though?

I imagine the issue is that women may feel uncomfortable or compromised by the presence of a man in these areas? It’s an issue for women to argue about rather than men. I personally won’t be affected and can’t speak for those who would be!

Problem is that when they do speak out they are death threated and branded TERFs. 

[HeliX]

36 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Problem is that when they do speak out they are death threated and branded TERFs. 

Has anybody been killed for being a TERF? People are being killed for being trans. In part due to some of the awful anti-trans rhetoric.

[Newbie]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:10 AM, Chie said:

However, 30 trans people vs an average of 61,000 cases of rape per year in the UK is a percentage of 0.00049%.

Meaning, trans people amount for 0.00049%.of all rapes in the UK each year (average).

 

Apart from being out by a factor of 100 (as pointed out by Wrighty), you are comparing apples with oranges. You are comparing the number of Trans people convicted of rape/sexual assault with the total number of people accused of rape. The number of people charged with rape (rather than convicted, which is going to be a lower figure) in the year to Sept 2022 was 2,616

The pitifully low rate of conviction for rape is scandalous, but that doesn't make your comparison valid. It is impossible to know how many of the people accused of rape but not charged/convicted are Trans and how many are Cis as the statistics aren't collected. All you can really say is that the number of Trans people charged/convicted as a percentage of the whole is broadly speaking the same order of magnitude as the percentage of Trans people in the community (i.e around 1%). Presumably that means that Trans people and Cis people are about equally likely to commit sexual offences. Maybe that should come as no surprise, although in truth, it is difficult to read too much into the statistics I would suggest.

[The Voice of Reason]

10 hours ago, HeliX said:

Has anybody been killed for being a TERF? 

Well I assume not from your question. What’s a TERF?

[John Wright]

12 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well I assume not from your question. What’s a TERF?

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

15 hours ago, Max Power said:

I don’t think anyone would argue that men could follow women into changing rooms or toilets and rape them, I am not sure it’s happening at the rate you suggest though?

I imagine the issue is that women may feel uncomfortable or compromised by the presence of a man in these areas? It’s an issue for women to argue about rather than men. I personally won’t be affected and can’t speak for those who would be!

But what makes a man a man?

If it’s a penis, then, I’d hazard a guess that women would be equally uncomfortable sharing facilities with trans men who happen to have been born with a vagina. Bear in mind that, trans men on hormones, are on testosterone, which is one hell of a drug. For all intents and purposes, they can look, sound like and have the physical strength in line with that of a cisgender man. 

If the rules were that you had to go with what matched your birth sex, then the influx of bearded, muscular men into women’s facilities could upset that idea too. 

But, the anti-trans campaigners conveniently forget that women transition to become men. Despite the balance being fairly even in numbers between male to female and female to male transitions. 

[Ghost Ship]

16 hours ago, Max Power said:

I don’t think anyone would argue that men could follow women into changing rooms or toilets and rape them, I am not sure it’s happening at the rate you suggest though?

I imagine the issue is that women may feel uncomfortable or compromised by the presence of a man in these areas? It’s an issue for women to argue about rather than men. I personally won’t be affected and can’t speak for those who would be!

I think you're right.

British Rowing has recently carried out some kind of consultation on this issue.  From what I understand through conversations with local rowers, the concerns of women rowers are not about the relatively remote possibility of being sexually assaulted by transwomen in the changing rooms, but that they feel extrememly uncomfortable at the possibilty of themselves (or their daughters) being exposed to intact male genitalia in what is meant to be a "women only" space.  (So far as I'm aware changing rooms at many sports clubs are still single sex and communal in that they don't have individual cubicles like some shop fitting rooms).

There also seems to be concern that this might be particularly distressing and "triggering" for any women who may have been unfortunate enough to have been the victims of male violence in the past - no matter how harmeless or well-meaning the transwomen in question might be.

It's practical issues like this that concern many women in the real world we live in, and not red-top headlines about transwomen rapists.  And although I'm not a woman, I think I can understand how women might feel about those concerns.

What surprises me is that so many (but not necessarily all) transwomen and other trans supporters seem so oblivious to those legitimate concerns, just as so many seem blind to the obvious advantages that transwomen have over women in many sports with a significant physical component.

I'm surprised transwomen don't have more empathy for the views of women...

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ghost Ship

[Ghost Ship]

1 hour ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

But what makes a man a man?

If it’s a penis, then, I’d hazard a guess that women would be equally uncomfortable sharing facilities with trans men who happen to have been born with a vagina. Bear in mind that, trans men on hormones, are on testosterone, which is one hell of a drug. For all intents and purposes, they can look, sound like and have the physical strength in line with that of a cisgender man...

Quite.  I suspect that many if not most women would be as unhappy and as uncomfortable about sharing communal changing rooms with transmen as they would be with transwomen.

 

1 hour ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

 

... If the rules were that you had to go with what matched your birth sex, then the influx of bearded, muscular men into women’s facilities could upset that idea too...

But having to match with your birth sex wouldn't have to be the rule, would it?  You could adopt a similar idea to that adopted by some sporting bodies for competition and have women-only and "open" changing rooms.  The bearded, muscular transmen could use the "open" facilities, which is where the men will be and where the transmen want to be anyway.  I doubt many men would even notice...

[Ghost Ship]

4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well I assume not from your question. What’s a TERF?

A "TERF" is basically a feminist (ie a supporter or promoter of women's rights) who doesn't believe it is possible for anyone born a biological male to become a woman.  They believe that to allow "men" to self-identify as "women" undermines the rights that women have fought for over many decades, hence they want to "exclude" transwomen from the category "women",

So, indistinguishable from a normal person really...   🙂

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ghost Ship

[Ghost Ship]

15 hours ago, HeliX said:

Has anybody been killed for being a TERF? People are being killed for being trans. In part due to some of the awful anti-trans rhetoric.

Are you really suggesting that because no TERF has been killed that that makes it OK for trans activists to threaten them with violence?

So far as I'm aware nobody has been killed for being a TERF, but I'm pretty certain @The Phantom is correct when he says that TERFs who do speak out are often threatened with violence and other nastiness from trans activists. 

Scottish politicians and JK Rowling voice anger over 'decapitate terfs' sign at pro-trans rally in Glasgow | UK News | Sky News

And I'd certainly be surprised if any TERF had killed a transwoman or even threatened one with violence.  I'm still waiting for @Chie to provide evidence to support their exaggerated claims that Posey Parker wanted to "destroy" and to "eradicate" trans people.  I've asked three times since October but I don't hold out much hope of a reply.  (Mind you, if they get a simple calculation wrong by a factor of 100, their views may not be of that much value...)

[Chie]

13 hours ago, Newbie said:

Apart from being out by a factor of 100 (as pointed out by Wrighty), you are comparing apples with oranges. You are comparing the number of Trans people convicted of rape/sexual assault with the total number of people accused of rape. The number of people charged with rape (rather than convicted, which is going to be a lower figure) in the year to Sept 2022 was 2,616

The pitifully low rate of conviction for rape is scandalous, but that doesn't make your comparison valid. It is impossible to know how many of the people accused of rape but not charged/convicted are Trans and how many are Cis as the statistics aren't collected. All you can really say is that the number of Trans people charged/convicted as a percentage of the whole is broadly speaking the same order of magnitude as the percentage of Trans people in the community (i.e around 1%). Presumably that means that Trans people and Cis people are about equally likely to commit sexual offences. Maybe that should come as no surprise, although in truth, it is difficult to read too much into the statistics I would suggest.

You are 100% correct. And, I was taking the total number of the entire year reported which was 61,158 for 2021 and 70,330 for 2022, I just simply forgot to multiply by 100 for the correct percentage.

And yes, I wasn't taking conviction into account I was going purely on reported cases. I took the number 30 purely in relation to the average reported per year on the website that was linked.

Maybe a better comparison is to look at is the total number of trans people vs the total number convicted of rape which is still 675,000 vs 30. While that 30 have done a horrific thing and deserve all the punishment available, that's still 674,970 that haven't done anything wrong.

Also, I fully agree with you about statistics being difficult to read too much into, but, such is the world we live in where statistics are bandied about in this debate. I am aware that the police do not record convictions in regards to the persons gender to fully know whether they were trans or not. It was purely in relation to that website that was linked.

Unlike others however, I can admit when I came at something in the wrong way. I was trying show that the total number of reported across all genders vs the total number of trans people doing it is minutely small, in relation to the linked website, that was obviously not the correct way to make that comparison.

And yes, saying that trans and cis are equally likely is hitting the nail on the head. But, sadly, that angle almost never works in the debate at large.

[Chie]

10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well I assume not from your question. What’s a TERF?

It stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, they prefer the term "Gender Critic" though and get a tad upset at the term "TERF". However, they are happy to use such terms as "TIM" Trans Identifying Male, so, I will stop when they stop.

Commonly a middle aged woman (male terfs are commonly called Gammons) who are convinced that the increase in the amount of people identifying as trans is going to cause a whole host of societal issues.

Usually their arguments revolve around the idea that having a trans person in a bathroom is highly dangerous, even though we have been using our preferred bathrooms etc for decades with little issue.

They tend to form such amazing hate groups as the LGBA, which on the surface claims to be a Lesbian Gay Bisexual rights organisation but, in reality, spends most of its time pumping out anti trans rhetoric. And, has yet to do anything significant for LGB citizens. They have also been highly criticised not being a bisexual friendly organisation, even though they have bisexual in their title.

They tend to range in their extremity, claiming to support women's rights, and yet, some align themselves with far right groups such as the Proud Boys, whose stance on women's rights involves taking away a woman's bodily autonomy and more.

[Chie]

5 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Are you really suggesting that because no TERF has been killed that that makes it OK for trans activists to threaten them with violence? So far as I'm aware nobody has been killed for being a TERF, but I'm pretty certain @The Phantom is correct when he says that TERFs who do speak out are often threatened with violence and other nastiness from trans activists. 

I am actually against this, I don't believe in threatening anyone who has differing views to my own.

5 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

And I'd certainly be surprised if any TERF had killed a transwoman or even threatened one with violence.  I'm still waiting for @Chie to provide evidence to support their exaggerated claims that Posey Parker wanted to "destroy" and to "eradicate" trans people.  I've asked three times since October but I don't hold out much hope of a reply.  (Mind you, if they get a simple calculation wrong by a factor of 100, their views may not be of that much value...)

Posey Parker has had multiple twitter accounts, done hundreds of TV appearances and created hundreds of social media video live streams. I have seen such things stated but I do not have the time to go back through what amounts to, days of my life, to find this information. But here is one link for you, to a share from her now banned account, where Parker advocates for the forced sterilisation of trans men so they can't have children. Does she fear trans people giving birth to trans babies? This banned account was probably her worst next to the things she comes out with on her live streams.

https://twitter.com/StubbornDogs/status/1001588093131087872/photo/1

Also, it says a lot that your best attempt at an insult is the fact I forgot to multiple a value by 100, a simple error I forgot in the moment.