AcousticallyChallenged Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: Quite. I suspect that many if not most women would be as unhappy and as uncomfortable about sharing communal changing rooms with transmen as they would be with transwomen. But having to match with your birth sex wouldn't have to be the rule, would it? You could adopt a similar idea to that adopted by some sporting bodies for competition and have women-only and "open" changing rooms. The bearded, muscular transmen could use the "open" facilities, which is where the men will be and where the transmen want to be anyway. I doubt many men would even notice... So, what does a trans woman have to do to be removed from the ogling of an “open” space? Putting it bluntly, some men I’m sure would take great delight in women having to get their tits out in an “open” space. There is an absolute fallacy around the idea of trans women parading their penises about in women’s facilities. Trans people typically agonise over even which bathroom to use in a private cubicle, let alone getting their kit off in a public space. You can bet that they’d be making a beeline for a cubicle, and I’d be surprised if many were comfortable in any form of even swimwear that revealed clues about their “original” hardware. Nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable, but, as harms go, the biggest threat in this context to women and trans women is men. Both groups deserve to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: A "TERF" is basically a feminist (ie a supporter or promoter of women's rights) who doesn't believe it is possible for anyone born a biological male to become a woman. They believe that to allow "men" to self-identify as "women" undermines the rights that women have fought for over many decades, hence they want to "exclude" transwomen from the category "women", So, indistinguishable from a normal person really... 🙂 Also, someone who actually adheres to science. You know that thing based upon investigation, evidence, testing etc that has dragged our society out of caves? Rather than just basing something upon someone else's 'feelings'. Males are XY females XX, but admittedly there are an infinitesimally small portion of people who are genuinely 'inter' sex with a mixture of chromosomes. Much the same as religion in my opinion. Everyone is supposed to pussyfoot about and modify their behaviour to placate someone's imaginary friend. I'd stress again that I am not anti trans or anti religion. If that floats your boat, then fine, but my views based upon science differ and I am not going to force those views upon you. What I object to is having someone else's views or opinions forced upon me. We are being told how to think. It used to be the case that you could disagree with others (even understand their views, but maybe not agree with them based upon your own critical thinking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: Are you really suggesting that because no TERF has been killed that that makes it OK for trans activists to threaten them with violence? No. Which is why I didn't say that. Though doubtless it's easier to argue against a strawman. I'm suggesting that focusing on a small number of nasty Twitter messages when the "other" side is both receiving those in multitudes, and actually being murdered is stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, The Phantom said: Also, someone who actually adheres to science. You know that thing based upon investigation, evidence, testing etc that has dragged our society out of caves? Rather than just basing something upon someone else's 'feelings'. Males are XY females XX, but admittedly there are an infinitesimally small portion of people who are genuinely 'inter' sex with a mixture of chromosomes. If you were following the science it might occur to you that sex and gender are not the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, The Phantom said: Also, someone who actually adheres to science. You know that thing based upon investigation, evidence, testing etc that has dragged our society out of caves? Rather than just basing something upon someone else's 'feelings'. Males are XY females XX, but admittedly there are an infinitesimally small portion of people who are genuinely 'inter' sex with a mixture of chromosomes. Much the same as religion in my opinion. Everyone is supposed to pussyfoot about and modify their behaviour to placate someone's imaginary friend. I'd stress again that I am not anti trans or anti religion. If that floats your boat, then fine, but my views based upon science differ and I am not going to force those views upon you. What I object to is having someone else's views or opinions forced upon me. We are being told how to think. It used to be the case that you could disagree with others (even understand their views, but maybe not agree with them based upon your own critical thinking). You can scientifically measure brain structure differences between cisgender and transgender people. The transgender brains lean towards characteristics associated with the opposite sex their birth sex. Unsurprisingly, the sample size is still quite small, but, the evidence exists. If that isn’t science, what is? Edited February 15, 2023 by AcousticallyChallenged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: If you were following the science it might occur to you that sex and gender are not the same thing. Gender is a social construct based upon someone's self determination. It also only applies to humans rather than the entirety of the biological world. That's not science, that's a 'feeling'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said: You can scientifically measure brain structure differences between cisgender and transgender people. Unsurprisingly, the sample size is still quite small, but, the evidence exists. If that isn’t science, what is? Psychopaths also have different brain structures to your average person. Your point being? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 1 minute ago, The Phantom said: Gender is a social construct based upon someone's self determination. It also only applies to humans rather than the entirety of the biological world. That's not science, that's a 'feeling'. Something being a social construct and rooted in feelings/identity doesn't make it separate from science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 1 minute ago, The Phantom said: Psychopaths also have different brain structures to your average person. Your point being? "it's also not science if I can ignore the facts by making some sort of glib unrelated comment" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, The Phantom said: Psychopaths also have different brain structures to your average person. Your point being? Well, where’s the fantasy in people’s gender identities, if it is something you can find physical, and genetic, predispositions for? Sounds awfully too scientific for me. Better just get grouchy about the notion instead. It wasn’t that long ago that people were saying there’s no scientific basis to homosexuality. And thus, they were questioning why it should be allowed or encouraged. Some people still try to cure homosexuality. Others just put people to death for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 2 hours ago, Chie said: Maybe a better comparison is to look at is the total number of trans people vs the total number convicted of rape which is still 675,000 vs 30. While that 30 have done a horrific thing and deserve all the punishment available, that's still 674,970 that haven't done anything wrong. It is a fair comment, just as it is a fair comment to say that the vast majority of people are not sexual offenders (2,616 charged in England & Wales out of a population of 59.6 Million). The percentages (0.004%) are almost identical. Equally, you could say that in 2021, in England and Wales, there were 2799 recorded Hate crimes against Trans people of which 11% resulted in a charge being brought. So around 308 people out of a population of 59.6 Million (0.0005%) so the overwhelming majority of people are not transphobic. That runs counter to the narrative of many trans activists. You can get statistics to say anything you want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 @HeliX @AcousticallyChallenged It seems I'm being told how to think? The fact that I have BSc (Bachelor of Science) after my name and spent 3 years studying biology at a red-brick University suggests I might have a reasonable handle on 'Science'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 7 minutes ago, The Phantom said: @HeliX @AcousticallyChallenged It seems I'm being told how to think? The fact that I have BSc (Bachelor of Science) after my name and spent 3 years studying biology at a red-brick University suggests I might have a reasonable handle on 'Science'. People disagreeing with you isn't you "being told how to think" you big queen. Would've thought a University education would supply you with that understanding, but here we are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 12 minutes ago, HeliX said: People disagreeing with you isn't you "being told how to think" you big queen. Would've thought a University education would supply you with that understanding, but here we are! Fair point. But still, Science is not based on feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Just now, The Phantom said: Fair point. But still, Science is not based on feelings. Psychologists might disagree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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