The 'Trans' Issue.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

22 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

@HeliX 

@AcousticallyChallenged

It seems I'm being told how to think? 

The fact that I have BSc (Bachelor of Science) after my name and spent 3 years studying biology at a red-brick University suggests I might have a reasonable handle on 'Science'. 

You can get a BSc in all sorts.

A computerist with a BSc in software engineering you probably wouldn’t call a scientist. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

3 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Fair point. 

But still, Science is not based on feelings. 

What about mental health? Anxiety? Depression? Addiction? 

Personality disorders?

Schizophrenia?

Lots of research into those, that’s based on feelings. 

[Max Power]

Perhaps allowances could be made on disabled toilets and changing rooms to accommodate trans people?

[The Phantom]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

What about mental health? Anxiety? Depression? Addiction? 

Personality disorders?

Schizophrenia?

Lots of research into those, that’s based on feelings. 

It's evidence and experimental based research and study into the mind and behaviors. 

They don't just say 'I've got a feeling you've got schizophrenia'.

You've said it there yourself - research into feelings.  Not outcomes based upon feelings. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

Perhaps allowances could be made on disabled toilets and changing rooms to accommodate trans people?

Trans people do do that, but, they also appreciate that it has an impact on disabled people who need those facilities and try and avoid it where viable. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, The Phantom said:

It's evidence and experimental based research and study into the mind and behaviors. 

They don't just say 'I've got a feeling you've got schizophrenia'.

You've said it there yourself - research into feelings.  Not outcomes based upon feelings. 

But, if you go to the doctor, suffering any of the above, you can walk away with a diagnosis and treatment plan, based on those feelings.

[Chie]

6 hours ago, Newbie said:

That runs counter to the narrative of many trans activists. You can get statistics to say anything you want.

I have actually seen the opposite, there have been quite a few surveys now (not that we can take them as entirely accurate) that show the majority of the British public do not care one jot if someone is trans or not. And trans activists have tended to pick up on these to use against the anti trans crew. Sure, there is probably a handful still saying that and naturally it's that handful that get the most amount of airtime on both sides of the fence, but I haven't seen a majority saying anything like that, quite the opposite.

[Chie]

7 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Also, someone who actually adheres to science.  You know that thing based upon investigation, evidence, testing etc that has dragged our society out of caves?  Rather than just basing something upon someone else's 'feelings'. 

Except for..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1506/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

 

7 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Males are XY females XX, but admittedly there are an infinitesimally small portion of people who are genuinely 'inter' sex with a mixture of chromosomes.   

It depends on the condition, Late Onset Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia is thought to be 1/66. Others can be as low as 1/2-300 or as high as 1/10,000 depending. The most extreme end of this is someone who is say physically male with an XX chromosomal pair.

It really isn't a small portion, there's quite a significant number of people who are intersex who will never realise it. Intersex doesn't just mean obscure genitalia and even you, yes you El Phantom, could be intersex and would never realise it unless you were specifically tested which generally only happens in cases such as cancer and other awful conditions.

 

7 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Much the same as religion in my opinion.  Everyone is supposed to pussyfoot about and modify their behaviour to placate someone's imaginary friend. 

It's not quite the same thing though is it, trans people aren't gathering in buildings worshipping giant statues of a hybrid vaginaphallus to chants of "Off-with-it-we-go". Or, turning up at your door with leaflets named "The C*cktower" (For those of you living in a cave im referring to the Jehovah's Witness magazine Watchtower).

 

7 hours ago, The Phantom said:

It used to be the case that you could disagree with others (even understand their views, but maybe not agree with them based upon your own critical thinking). 

You still can, but here is the question, I have provided you with some evidence above that shows that trans brains are different to cis brains, are you going to accept this or are you going to disregard it with some excuse and continue the same narrative?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Chie

[The Phantom]

4 minutes ago, Chie said:

It's not quite the same thing though is it, trans people aren't gathering in buildings worshipping giant statues of a hybrid vaginaphallus to chants of "Off-with-it-we-go". Or, turning up at your door with leaflets named "The C*cktower" (For those of you living in a cave im referring to the Jehovah's Witness magazine Watchtower).

You still can, but here is the question, I have provided you with some evidence above that shows that trans brains are different to cis brains, are you going to accept this or are you going to disregard it with some excuse and continue the same narrative?

I like your religious response, that made me chuckle.  I didn't suggest that trans was a form of religion though.  It does seem in a way to be treated almost like one though, whereby people get hyper offended if you don't agree. 

I didn't say anywhere that I disagreed with any difference in brain structure or activity.  I think it's entirely possible.  But then again drugs, parasites, injuries, meditation can also alter the structure or activity of the brain.   What's hardwired and what might be psychosomatic?  Still with reference to those articles, they don't say a guy has a woman's brain therefore he's trans.  It's 'more like' a female brain. 

[The Voice of Reason]

20 hours ago, John Wright said:

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Thanks John for spelling out the acronym ( and Ghost Ship for the later post). I think anyone not following this debate in great detail (99% of the population at a conservative guess) would still have difficulty in knowing what a  “Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist” means They could have come up with something better. Maybe those who coined the term/ acronym wanted people to think them more clever. 

Like Extinction Rebellion, albeit that it is an organisation not an individual, that’s not clear what is meant either.

Just Stop Oil ( just stop oil doing what? )is a bit better but why not “ Just stop using oil”? By extension there would no longer be any need to drill for, or extract any more oil.
Whether or not you agree with their objectives it’s a better way of describing what they want. 

 

[HeliX]

4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Whether or not you agree with their objectives it’s a better way of describing what they want. 

Just stop oil want a cessation of new oil extraction, not current use.

[The Voice of Reason]

7 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Just stop oil want a cessation of new oil extraction, not current use.

Well why don’t they call themselves “ Just stop oil extraction “.

Or better still call themselves “We are going to inconvenience everyone, hinder ambulances, cause people to miss their parents funeral and endanger lives because we are misguided idiots”

But I guess you’d need too big a banner to fit that all in

 

[Ghost Ship]

On 2/15/2023 at 7:53 AM, Chie said:

I am actually against this, I don't believe in threatening anyone who has differing views to my own...

 

Well said.  Thank you.

On 2/15/2023 at 7:53 AM, Chie said:

... Posey Parker has had multiple twitter accounts, done hundreds of TV appearances and created hundreds of social media video live streams. I have seen such things stated but I do not have the time to go back through what amounts to, days of my life, to find this information. But here is one link for you, to a share from her now banned account, where Parker advocates for the forced sterilisation of trans men so they can't have children. Does she fear trans people giving birth to trans babies? This banned account was probably her worst next to the things she comes out with on her live streams.

https://twitter.com/StubbornDogs/status/1001588093131087872/photo/1

...

And thank you for that too - very interesting.

I don't want to split hairs unnecessarily, but what does it mean and in what context* was it tweeted?  It seems rather an odd thing to say without knowing the circumstances in which it was said.  I've googled the phrase together with Posie Parker but only come back with the tweet you've linked to.  Wasn't there an enormous controversy over it, and why can't I find any other mentions of it?  On her Wikipedia page there is a reference to it, but the citation doesn't seem particularly reliable and is only a university student paper basically saying that she said such and such.

If it's true that she both made that comment and that there's no other context* to it that shows it in a different light, then I won't try to justify it or excuse it.

On 2/15/2023 at 7:53 AM, Chie said:

... Also, it says a lot that your best attempt at an insult is the fact I forgot to multiple a value by 100, a simple error I forgot in the moment.

Ha!  It certainly isn't my best attempt at an insult.  I could do far better than that...

It was a throw away remark but not, I think, unfair.  It's difficult enough just weighing up and assessing widely diverse opinions on this issue without also having to doublecheck what people put forward as straight-forward facts, or what ought to be straight-forward facts.  If you want to introduce numbers, statistics and %ages into this debate then I think you are fair game for criticism if you get the numbers out by a factor of 100 - and if that error happens to be one that works in your favour.

(FWIW I'm also not entirely sure about some comments you made last year about studies on the effects of testosterone suppression on transwomen sports people.  I think a lot of other scientific studies contradict what you said and have directly led to various international sports governing bodies changing their rules on the participation of trans athletes.  Isle of Pride - Page 19 - Local News - Manx Forums - A Discussion Board & Classifieds for the Isle of Man)

But thanks for this reply.  I appreciate it.

 

 

*I ask about the context because I followed the live stream last year of Alison Bailey's employment tribunal and people following the live stream had access to the evidence bundles.  It was quite clear on scores of occasions that if you weren't aware of the context in which tweets had been made then they could be vastly misleading when read in isolation and without context.  And that was true of tweets from Bailey herself, Garden Court chambers and Stonewall.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ghost Ship

[Ghost Ship]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:00 AM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So, what does a trans woman have to do to be removed from the ogling of an “open” space?...

I don't think I said that transwomen should use "open" facilities did I?  I think I wrote that the "bearded and muscular" transmen that you referred to should use "open" facilities.  Or the men's if they preferred.

On 2/15/2023 at 9:00 AM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

... Putting it bluntly, some men I’m sure would take great delight in women having to get their tits out in an “open” space...

Who do you actually mean when you refer to "women"?  Do you mean the bearded and muscular transmen getting their tits out?  I'm a bit confused because I thought you might be an advocate of the view that a transman was not a woman but a man, so I'm confused by which women you are talking about.  The way I look at it the only women that would be in an "open" facility would be ones who wanted to be there, and presumably were happy for any men present to ogle at their tits.

FWIW I think there is a genuine problem about accommodating transwomen and transmen in terms of communal facilities.  I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that allowing transwomen to use women only facilities is not the answer.

On 2/15/2023 at 9:00 AM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

... There is an absolute fallacy around the idea of trans women parading their penises about in women’s facilities...

I'm not sure how you can make such a sweeping statement as to say it's an absolute fallacy (or even a fallacy at all).  But even if it is, does it matter? 

If women really and genuinely feel uncomfortable, or distressed, or threatened and unsafe at the possibility that this might happen to them (or their daughters) shouldn't those fears be respected?  You seem to want to ignore them or to devalue them in some way, and I'm not sure I understand why.

On 2/15/2023 at 9:00 AM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

...You can bet that they’d be making a beeline for a cubicle, and I’d be surprised if many were comfortable in any form of even swimwear that revealed clues about their “original” hardware...

That may or may not be right - I don't know.  But I have heard that some women athletes have reported such behaviour on the part of transwomen competitors.  But obviously I was never present and couldn't vouch for the truth of such statements.  

The newspaper article linked to below from a different part of the country has been brought to my attention.  It might not be directly relevant to this discussion (I think the perpetrator was just your common or garden male exhibitionist and not a transwoman) but a couple of interesting points arise from it.

First, when the victim complained to a member of staff she says that she was told that they couldn't do anything because it would be "discriminatory" to query the man exposing himself.  Why the member of staff would even think of saying such a thing (assuming it's true) I have no idea.  But I suspect he might have inferred that the exhibitionist must have been a transwoman and that therefore it would have been more than his job was worth to do or say anything that could even remotely be construed as transphobic.  Therefore he ignored the victim's complaint.

The point I'm making about this is that the trans lobby is so quick to shout "Transphobe!" and to pour out vile abuse  that ordinary people (who know very little about a very complicated issue) are so scared or confused that they do stupid things.  In what sane world would a sports centre employee tell a women who was complaining about a man exposing himself in the women's changing rooms that there was nothing he could do because it would be discriminatory?  It's madness.

Second, this sports centre appears to have not only communal single sex changing rooms and showers, but also individual self-contained changing cubicles and self-contained shower facilities.  So there are separate women-only and men-only facilities and self-contained or "open" facilities that can be used by anybody.  That sounds sensible to me.

'Naked man' reported in female change room at UEA Sportspark | Norwich Evening News (eveningnews24.co.uk)

On 2/15/2023 at 9:00 AM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

... Nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable, but, as harms go, the biggest threat in this context to women and trans women is men. Both groups deserve to be safe. 

Yes they do, but I'm not convinced that giving transwomen open access to women-only facilities achieves that aim.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ghost Ship

[AcousticallyChallenged]

51 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

Who do you actually mean when you refer to "women"? 

I refer to those who identify as women that are, in your view, rightfully excluded from women's facilities because they were assigned male at birth, or AMAB, to use the initialism. Note that an effect of hormone treatment for transwomen is the growth of breasts.

Many trans men will undergo what is known as 'top surgery', otherwise known as a double mastectomy, to give them a masculine chest. I'd posit it unlikely that before that, they'd be comfortable exposing their chest in an 'open' facility.

52 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

If women really and genuinely feel uncomfortable, or distressed, or threatened and unsafe at the possibility that this might happen to them (or their daughters) shouldn't those fears be respected?  You seem to want to ignore them or to devalue them in some way, and I'm not sure I understand why.

It is a valid fear, but, if you talk to any reasonable trans person, they absolutely are in fear of being 'outed' and will do their utmost to be perceived as the gender they identify as. They also quite simply don't want to risk putting anyone in a position where they feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

54 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

The point I'm making about this is that the trans lobby is so quick to shout "Transphobe!" and to pour out vile abuse  that ordinary people (who know very little about a very complicated issue) are so scared or confused that they do stupid things. 

A vocal minority on twitter does not a group make. The vast majority of trans people want to exist in peace, and that's it. They don't seek confrontation, but they do seek the right to safely exist.

54 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

self-contained or "open" facilities that can be used by anybody.  That sounds sensible to me.

Normalising self-contained facilities is absolutely an equalising answer. Everyone can get changed and piss in peace. Yet there are a vocal minority that would decry the concept of isolated unisex spaces as oppressive.

1 hour ago, Ghost Ship said:

Yes they do, but I'm not convinced that giving transwomen open access to women-only facilities achieves that aim.  

Where is the line where someone is 'woman enough' for a women's space?