The 'Trans' Issue.

[Chie]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, The Voice of Reason said:

The current climate has never been more understanding and sympathetic to the trans issue.

And yet, it also isn't. Look at what's happening in the UK, America and around the world. We also aren't free from it on the island, we have people leaving various posters and stickers around the place that have a very clear anti trans/LGBTQIA+ message. There are certain churches, well known (will remain nameless) individuals, political parties of our own who are pumping out ridiculous anti LGBT+ rhetoric. I have friends who have been physically assaulted on nights out, comments made at them in the street, comments made by staff in certain pubs. Just because you don't necessarily see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, The Voice of Reason said:

You went to the Douglas meeting. Who genuinely didn’t feel safe doing so? Were  there as Helix suggests people waiting outside ready to beat you up? Or was there even some anti trans protest there?

Im not sure on the exact numbers of who felt what, the workshop pretty much just got onto business as soon as it started. Once the workshop was over I left.

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, The Voice of Reason said:

I rarely, if ever, agree with offshoremanxman  ( or disagree with Roxanne)but it seems there was not really enough interest to support more than one meeting.

Actually, I think it was an advertising issue in some ways. It wasn't overly publicly advertised for the reason of not risking drawing negative organisations or individuals. There are quite a few of us over here and not all of them are fully comfortable with attending such meetings in the public sphere.

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, The Voice of Reason said:

To suggest that was because of some fear of intimidation is disingenuous.

Is it? Even if what I wrote above wasn't happening, the media, various public figures, the UK government and the rise in anti trans/lgbt+ crime in the past few years are doing a very good job of giving that impression. Imagine for a second that it was you, every time you see a newspaper, go online, even tv and all you see day in day out is hate against people like you, lobbying against people like you, lies being spread about people like you, organisations forming with the express intention of making your life more difficult than it needs to be, public figures pumping out all manner of horrific accusations. How would you feel? I don't believe for one second you would not care or not feel more vulnerable.

[Passing Time]

12 hours ago, HeliX said:

No-one under the age of 70 lives here anyway.

There are certainly plenty of them about.

So you keep saying without providing a shred of evidence...

[Passing Time]

10 hours ago, HeliX said:

No idea, I wasn't here at the time. But there are certainly plenty of quite aggressively and unpleasantly anti-trans individuals on the island.

Another baseless generalisation???

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Passing Time said:

Another baseless generalisation???

Talking about a specific set of people is quite the opposite of a generalisation.

[Max Power]

13 hours ago, HeliX said:

No idea, I wasn't here at the time. But there are certainly plenty of quite aggressively and unpleasantly anti-trans individuals on the island.

I think it would be hard to put any numbers to this? I don't know what you would do to change attitudes, the majority are tolerant of Trans issues, it doesn't mean that they are particularly enthusiastic about them? 

I think the push for the recognition of all sorts of whacky ideas, such as in sports, changing facilities, prisons, the beginning of transitioning young children and in fact trying to normalise some of the less savoury aspects of transgenderism, tends to wind up the media and in turn the hard of thinking.    

[jackwhite]

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think it would be hard to put any numbers to this? I don't know what you would do to change attitudes, the majority are tolerant of Trans issues, it doesn't mean that they are particularly enthusiastic about them? 

I think the push for the recognition of all sorts of whacky ideas, such as in sports, changing facilities, prisons, the beginning of transitioning young children and in fact trying to normalise some of the less savoury aspects of transgenderism, tends to wind up the media and in turn the hard of thinking.    

OK, question, have you been out in the Isle of Man in the company of a trans person or trans people?

I have and a lot of people are openly hostile. At times there have been comments, other times just staring, like hard staring, where it's made us all uncomfortable. Other times I've had to have security staff intervene. One time I had someone take a swing at me because I was with them. I've had the same in places I've worked. Less so these days as I will happily bar anyone who displays that sort of hostile attitude and not allow them across the door again.

I think most people would be horrified at the attitudes some display on the Isle of Man. 

To be fair, is it the majority? No. But I bet it's more than you realise.

[Max Power]

10 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

OK, question, have you been out in the Isle of Man in the company of a trans person or trans people?

I have and a lot of people are openly hostile. At times there have been comments, other times just staring, like hard staring, where it's made us all uncomfortable. Other times I've had to have security staff intervene. One time I had someone take a swing at me because I was with them. I've had the same in places I've worked. Less so these days as I will happily bar anyone who displays that sort of hostile attitude and not allow them across the door again.

I think most people would be horrified at the attitudes some display on the Isle of Man. 

To be fair, is it the majority? No. But I bet it's more than you realise.

Yes I have, and didn't see any of what you describe. I suppose it depends where you go perhaps? I remember being in the White House in Peel when two young Black guys came in, typical reaction from the Govaghs, although no violence, and I suspect that Trans people may experience the same. I was in the company of a gorgeous Transexual in 1886 recently with some friends. The only stares appeared to be due to how beautiful she looked? 

I think a lot of hostility is whipped up by the amount of attention which is created by trying to normalise the issues. 

[jackwhite]

27 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Yes I have, and didn't see any of what you describe. I suppose it depends where you go perhaps? I remember being in the White House in Peel when two young Black guys came in, typical reaction from the Govaghs, although no violence, and I suspect that Trans people may experience the same. I was in the company of a gorgeous Transexual in 1886 recently with some friends. The only stares appeared to be due to how beautiful she looked? 

I think a lot of hostility is whipped up by the amount of attention which is created by trying to normalise the issues. 

Don't agree with that. 

Maybe I'm more sensitive to the stares, whispers to each other or possibly more unfortunate than you.

1886 was bad for it. 

The company I've been in wouldn't go near The Whitehouse. Personally I've had issues in there just not being from the Isle of Man! The last time I was in with an Asian person, the stares and whispers were off the chart. It was suggested as a venue one night and very quickly shot down.

Other places in Douglas have been just as bad, if not worse. 

[The Voice of Reason]

6 hours ago, jackwhite said:

Don't agree with that. 

Maybe I'm more sensitive to the stares, whispers to each other or possibly more unfortunate than you.

 

Sounds about right.

If you are obviously a man dressed up as a woman ( or vice versa) going into say a pub, you will perhaps attract a bit of attention.

In an ideal world that shouldn’t be the case but we don’t live in an ideal world.

I have experienced this scenario only once,  and far from such a person experiencing hostility they have been engaged in friendly conversation about what being transgender means and have had the opportunity to explain their position. It was quite an exchange to witness.

As to the stares and whispers being off the chart when you visited the Whitehouse in Peel with an Asian person, I simply don’t believe you. I know the place quite well and whilst that may have been true twenty or thirty years ago having Asian, black, or any other ethnic customers in any IOM pub is completely normal and unworthy of comment these days.

 

 

 

[jackwhite]

36 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Sounds about right.

If you are obviously a man dressed up as a woman ( or vice versa) going into say a pub, you will perhaps attract a bit of attention.

In an ideal world that shouldn’t be the case but we don’t live in an ideal world.

I have experienced this scenario only once,  and far from such a person experiencing hostility they have been engaged in friendly conversation about what being transgender means and have had the opportunity to explain their position. It was quite an exchange to witness.

As to the stares and whispers being off the chart when you visited the Whitehouse in Peel with an Asian person, I simply don’t believe you. I know the place quite well and whilst that may have been true twenty or thirty years ago having Asian, black, or any other ethnic customers in any IOM pub is completely normal and unworthy of comment these days.

 

 

 

You weren't there but you don't believe me 🤣

Aye ok. I work in hospitality but would say that about another pub if it wasn't true. 

The person I was with, and it was only the two of us, asked if we could leave after one as they were feeling uncomfortable. I noticed it myself. 

Good to see you've graduated from the voice of reason to omnipresence.

[The Voice of Reason]

10 hours ago, jackwhite said:

You weren't there but you don't believe me 🤣

Aye ok. I work in hospitality but would say that about another pub if it wasn't true. 

The person I was with, and it was only the two of us, asked if we could leave after one as they were feeling uncomfortable. I noticed it myself. 

Good to see you've graduated from the voice of reason to omnipresence.

Ok amongst all the whispers and stares where there any racial references?

I’ve not experienced it myself but some of my white skinned friends claim to have received the same response you describe when going into a Peel hostelry as strangers 

[jackwhite]

39 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Ok amongst all the whispers and stares where there any racial references?

I’ve not experienced it myself but some of my white skinned friends claim to have received the same response you describe when going into a Peel hostelry as strangers 

Ah so it's because we don't normally go in then? 

You're hell bent on proving something when you weren't actually there. It's an argument you will never prove but it didn't happen because you say it didn't. I could have volunteered much worse information about the place but chose to hold it back. It's also not the first time it's happened on the Isle of Man and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Then when waiting for a bus there was a reference to the person probably having been bought to bring here and was probably a man. That good enough for you?

It's a sad state of affairs as the partner of the owner is Asian. 

Anyway you actually don't know what happened and no matter that I was the one there, you will probably claim I'm wrong, so here ends this discussion. 

It's laughable the extent some people will go to on here to claim they are right and the poster is wrong, yet they actually haven't a clue either way.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by jackwhite

[The Voice of Reason]

26 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

Ah so it's because we don't normally go in then? 

You're hell bent on proving something when you weren't actually there. 

 

No I’m not. I just think it’s worth exploring other possible explanations as to why you received the reception you did,  ( there is no excuse for rudeness whatever the reason).

In the circumstances and to put the matter to bed I’ll accept that this was racist behaviour. Like you say, end of discussion.

Edited February 24, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[Asthehills]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:16 PM, jackwhite said:

OK, question, have you been out in the Isle of Man in the company of a trans person or trans people?

I have and a lot of people are openly hostile. At times there have been comments, other times just staring, like hard staring, where it's made us all uncomfortable. Other times I've had to have security staff intervene. One time I had someone take a swing at me because I was with them. I've had the same in places I've worked. Less so these days as I will happily bar anyone who displays that sort of hostile attitude and not allow them across the door again.

I think most people would be horrified at the attitudes some display on the Isle of Man. 

To be fair, is it the majority? No. But I bet it's more than you realise.

Yes, to most venues in Douglas and up until the end of last year on a fairly regular basis.

Never had an issue, including 1886 apart from one guy who started chatting our friend up and was a bit put out when he figured out they had been mates 20 years ago.

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

 
 

Manx news comments on Facebook really do drive home how inclusive and forward thinking the island is.