The 'Trans' Issue.

[HeliX]

4 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

 
 

Manx news comments on Facebook really do drive home how inclusive and forward thinking the island is. 

There's considerably worse on some Manx pages.

[Ghost Ship]

Looks like World Athletics has followed the example of World Aquatics' and is banning transgender women who have gone through male puberty from competing in female world ranking competitons.

World Athletics bans transgender female athletes from competing in female world ranking events - BBC Sport

[Declan]

It puts a promising trans athlete in the position of choosing between an athletics and their gender identity at a very early age. 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, Declan said:

It puts a promising trans athlete in the position of choosing between an athletics and their gender identity at a very early age. 

Well no I don’t believe it does.

Having followed this thread with interest and trying to understand and comprehend the views expressed, I’m going to put my head above the parapet here and let people take shots at me.

99.99% of people are born with male or female genitalia. I believe that determines not just their sex but their gender ( not one of 73 or whatever)

Yes there are those born a man that have feminine traits and women who have masculine traits. That’s all fine  and dandy.

There are also those born male who feel they are actually female and those born male who feel themselves to be female. Again that’s fine and dandy.
They can adopt the traits of the gender they consider themselves to be in terms of dress, behavior etc. They can have medical procedures and take all sorts of medications to make themselves feel more the gender they believe they are.

And they should be able to do all the above without fear of abuse and physical violence or any form of persecution.

But it is not right to have those born a man to compete professionally against those born a women where say, superior strength gives you an inbuilt advantage.

But by all means have self determining gender sports competitions. Or open to all competitions but not pretend they are anything other than that.

No amount of “ handicapping” by messing about with testerone levels for example is going to result in a level playing field (or at least the perception of one)

There are a number of things I ( and others) would like to change in society. But it doesn’t ( and can’t always) work like that. Tolerance and acceptance towards every person whatever their race, colour  , their way of dressing or sexuality etc is the key.

I am not sure what more transsexuals are asking for

There I’ve said it.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[Declan]

14 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well no I don’t believe it does.

 

Well of course it does. It creates a point before puberty where a budding athlete needs to decide that if they want to compete after transition they need to take puberty blockers. So that decision would need to be made very young - indeed at an age where some people locally  think they shouldn't even be aware of the subject of gender identity. 

I'm not sure what the solution is to trans people competing in woman's sport, there probably isn't an issue free solution, just empathising with the people put in a difficult position by this one. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

14 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I am not sure what more transsexuals are asking for

Most are asking for the right to piss in peace and to exist without fear of violence and retribution.

Not that many are professional athletes or budding to be professional athletes.

But, it's the perception that they all are that sells papers.

[Passing Time]

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

yet when it goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong

[The Voice of Reason]

5 hours ago, Declan said:

Well of course it does. It creates a point before puberty where a budding athlete needs to decide that if they want to compete after transition they need to take puberty blockers. So that decision would need to be made very young - indeed at an age where some people locally  think they shouldn't even be aware of the subject of gender identity. 

I'm not sure what the solution is to trans people competing in woman's sport, there probably isn't an issue free solution, just empathising with the people put in a difficult position by this one. 

Well of course it doesn’t. 
 

As I said previously it is my contention  ( and the contention of most people I would suggest) that gender is decided by the genitalia you are born with.

So the issue of puberty blockers doesn’t come into it. No point is created for anything. 
 

Whilst having sympathy for those they were born of the “wrong gender” I can’t see how they can legitimately compete in sport as whatever gender they choose to identify with.

Its a case of you can’t always get what you want. OK it’s a cliche that life might not seem fair to you but sometimes you have to put up with these type of societal constraints which are there for practical reasons (prisons, toilets sports etc all of which have been discussed ad nauseam on here).
Putting trans considerations aside I can’t imagine a boxing match between a male and a female ever being sanctioned by any of the sports governing bodies.

 

 

[Declan]

Nevermind

Edited March 24, 2023 by Declan

[HeliX]

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

As I said previously it is my contention  ( and the contention of most people I would suggest) that gender is decided by the genitalia you are born with.

Presumably you have some sort of basis for this, given that it appears to contradict the science?

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

Presumably you have some sort of basis for this, given that it appears to contradict the science?

Are you talking about it being the basis of most peoples opinion? In which case that is easily proved.

You can pick and choose what science you want. There are few subjects where there is not contradictory “ scientific “ views,

But what exactly are we arguing about?  You suggest, no you postulate, that a persons gender is different from their sex.

If I understand it correctly you say that a persons sex is determined by the bits they are born with whereas their  gender is self determined by whatever they believe themselves to be (and some have identified 73 or so such genders).

I think that’s a bit silly but in practical terms it makes no difference to me.

I will treat everyone I meet, white, heterosexual, black, of colour, gay, transsexual or whatever with respect. Each has the potential to annoy me as an individual but it won’t be as a result of these specific characteristics.

But it doesn’t mean that transgenderism doesn’t throw up specific issues in the sporting arena. Only a fool would deny that.

 

. 

[HeliX]

Gender is different from sex. For most people they're aligned, but they're two entirely different concepts. That's not an opinion.

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But it doesn’t mean that transgenderism doesn’t throw up specific issues in the sporting arena. Only a fool would deny that.

It's an issue that affects so few people worldwide, and yet it gets masses of media coverage. Almost like they want people to be angry at each other rather than trying to fix real problems.

[Two-lane]

YouTube kindly sent me a video - the topic was a Canadian male->female weightlifter setting a new record for some type of weights competition in the female class.

The Canadian weightlifting organisation seems to have given up on things, and does not mandate physical or chemical or any kind of test - if you want to consider yourself a woman and compete with women, that's fine by them.

So a male lifter, the size of the usual outhouse, and with a full beard, entered a competition as a female and naturally blitzed the previous "female" record.

[wrighty]

16 hours ago, Two-lane said:

YouTube kindly sent me a video - the topic was a Canadian male->female weightlifter setting a new record for some type of weights competition in the female class.

The Canadian weightlifting organisation seems to have given up on things, and does not mandate physical or chemical or any kind of test - if you want to consider yourself a woman and compete with women, that's fine by them.

So a male lifter, the size of the usual outhouse, and with a full beard, entered a competition as a female and naturally blitzed the previous "female" record.

Ludicrous, if true. 

[The Phantom]

16 hours ago, Two-lane said:

YouTube kindly sent me a video - the topic was a Canadian male->female weightlifter setting a new record for some type of weights competition in the female class.

The Canadian weightlifting organisation seems to have given up on things, and does not mandate physical or chemical or any kind of test - if you want to consider yourself a woman and compete with women, that's fine by them.

So a male lifter, the size of the usual outhouse, and with a full beard, entered a competition as a female and naturally blitzed the previous "female" record.

 

6 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Ludicrous, if true. 

Yep I saw this too. 

The real hilarious point was however was that the previous 'female' record was actually held by a trans athlete who appears to have had an irony bypass. Subsequently, she released several videos stating how aggrieved they were and that the male lifter had done this purely to be malicious.  Even though he was actually a professional trainer, who trained females and had seen them having to compete unfairly against self determining females.