The Voice of Reason Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: This is really confusing the anti-trans brigade especially those who insist your gender is set by the genitals which you are born with. It would be amusing if it wasn't so tragic for those involved. I believe ( insist is not the right word in my case) your gender is set by the genitals you were born with. But I’m certainly not anti-trans (in that I also believe that people should have whatever surgery they like, dress how they like, act how they like, call themselves whatever gender they want to and should be free to do all those things and more, without facing hostility) So does that make me intolerant? In terms of the boxing furore, if the Italian woman had been seriously injured (or God forbid even worse) by the Albanian boxer would that have been a price worth paying just for, in some eyes, a point to have been proven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: I believe ( insist is not the right word in my case) your gender is set by the genitals you were born with. But I’m certainly not anti-trans (in that I also believe that people should have whatever surgery they like, dress how they like, act how they like, call themselves whatever gender they want to and should be free to do all those things and more, without facing hostility) So does that make me intolerant? You tell me... I am not a mind reader 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: In terms of the boxing furore, if the Italian woman had been seriously injured (or God forbid even worse) by the Albanian boxer would that have been a price worth paying just for, in some eyes, a point to have been proven? I don't agree with boxing at all. It's a brutal sport. Those who choose to box should understand the risks. That said the subject her was born a woman, identifies as a woman and apparently has female genitalia. She just happens to have an unusual but not rare genetic condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 @VOICE OF REASON - Sex and Gender are different. Social behavioural expectations aren't set by genitals but by society's reaction to them, which have changed a lot over time. Sex is primarily about large and small gametes, but also results in secondary sexual characteristics which is where most of the fuss lies. Environmentally impacted, evolved developmental pathways are always going to have exceptions, your definition of sex (not gender) is accurate to about 1 in 10,000 or so. Pretty good, but when you have a world population of - what is it now - 8 billion it's going to break down quite a lot. You sound accepting to me not intolerant, but this is an intolerant age and I'm sure some will take offence. The boxer is Algerian. She and a Tiawanese boxer are said to have failed medical examinations and were disqualified by the International Boxing Association (IBA). I don't get why they would do this because of "corruption" there is clearly a dispute between the IOC and the IBA. I agree an unfair advantage in a contact sport is highly problematic, and is likely to result in injuries. Testing for Testosterone levels is in my view a reasonable approach, without testes it can't get above a certain level, with basically no overlap between the male and female development pathways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 37 minutes ago, Chinahand said: @VOICE OF REASON - Sex and Gender are different. Best of luck to you on this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) 8 hours ago, Chinahand said: were disqualified by the International Boxing Association (IBA). I don't get why they would do this because of "corruption" there is clearly a dispute between the IOC and the IBA. No one gets why Roy Jones Jr got the silver medal 30 odd years ago either. Edited August 3 by TheTeapot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 8 hours ago, Chinahand said: @VOICE OF REASON The boxer is Algerian. She and a Tiawanese boxer are said to have failed medical examinations and were disqualified by the International Boxing Association (IBA). I don't get why they would do this because of "corruption" there is clearly a dispute between the IOC and the IBA. It is my understanding that both women had previously fought in IBA competitions and lost bouts to other women. It seems that the IBA changed it's rules to include a chromosome test at which point they were banned. Based on what I have read the reasons for the IBA introducing that test are somewhat controversial. I would need to do more research to confirm that but that is what I have read in several online sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 Didn't know about that, interesting read. Thanks Teapot. It sort of fits into my view of progress. There was a controversy, it was investigated, rules were changed. You hope the outcome is better. I firmly think elite sport should be segregated by sex. That people advantaged by testosterone (and these advantages are lasting) have an unfair physical advantage over those who don't. Testosterone levels don't overlap between the sexes. Normal Results Normal measurements for these tests: Male: 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) or 10 to 35 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L) Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL or 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/tests/testosterone#:~:text=Normal Results,0.5 to 2.4 nmol%2FL If someone with female genitalia but male testes (usually internally) then the advantage the testosterone has given them is such as to make it unfair. There's a big gap in levels. I think it isn't beyond the wit of humanity to agree a generously positioned line where testosterone levels can only come from male testes and so excludes the individual competing in women's sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 1 minute ago, Chinahand said: Didn't know about that, interesting read. Thanks Teapot. It sort of fits into my view of progress. There was a controversy, it was investigated, rules were changed. You hope the outcome is better. And then we can move to 2016 where there were some controversies, they were investigated, rules were changed and you hope the outcome is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 4 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: It is my understanding that both women had previously fought in IBA competitions and lost bouts to other women I don't see why you think any of this is relevant. Can you explain. I'm sure a top 1000 men's boxer could sometimes win and sometimes lose to a top 100 female boxer. It would be unfair to say the male boxer was an elite boxer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 Roy Jones Jr is probably my favourite ever boxer btw, absolutely incredible at his peak with an unbelieve sense of balance, able to snap shots from crazy angles. He was so exciting. But later in his career he popped for steroids and that tarnishes things. I've long thought that using drugs in boxing is worse than athletics or cycling or whatever, because the aim of the game is to punch your opponent repeatedly in the face until they can't fight back. Cheating in that sport can kill someone. Which brings us back to the actual topic, in a way. The advantages of testosterone. This picture was one of many doing the rounds yesterday, in some respects its cruel, would you make Fatima Whitbread undergo gentic testing to see if she's a man were she competing today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 @TheTeapot I get why countries would corruptly attempt to get their boxers gold medals. I struggle to see why they would corruptly try to get a boxer from another country with a 51/9 record in regional boxing disqualified. Is she such a threatening contender to warrant such a plot? Especially one which can be disproved with a blood test? Doesn't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 26 minutes ago, Chinahand said: I don't see why you think any of this is relevant. Can you explain. I'm sure a top 1000 men's boxer could sometimes win and sometimes lose to a top 100 female boxer. It would be unfair to say the male boxer was an elite boxer. The bit that is relevant is that they had previously fought without issue in IBA competitions. Then the rules changed. There appears to be some suggestion that they were changed as part of corruption in the IBA. I haven’t been able to verify that. The win rate possibly isn't that relevant other than to point out that it's not the same as Mike Tyson putting on a wig and claiming to be a woman. I know you haven't made that claim but there are plenty of memes online to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) I've been trying to lay out the principles to frame the issue. It is a way to depersonalise it and identify the core issues. It is always going to be complicated when you are attempting to have black and white lines in messy biological reality, but my view is a human being whose body has testes to generate testosterone (or which generated it over puberty) has advantages over one that do not and it is therefore reasonable to segregate them so you can identify elite athletes in both categories. This correlates 99.99% of the time with genitalia but not 100%. I've no idea about Fatima Whitbread and I don't see the point of personalising it. Edited August 3 by Chinahand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: seems that the IBA changed it's rules to include a chromosome test at which point they were banned. I've not seen any confirmation of this - I've seen claims it was something other than a testosterone test, but that it was a secret what it actually was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 32 minutes ago, Chinahand said: @TheTeapot I get why countries would corruptly attempt to get their boxers gold medals. I struggle to see why they would corruptly try to get a boxer from another country with a 51/9 record in regional boxing disqualified. Is she such a threatening contender to warrant such a plot? Especially one which can be disproved with a blood test? Doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's the point, many of AIBAs decisions over the years haven't. They have repeatedly done incredibly shady shit and ruined careers, not just the headline cases. High level amateur boxing is taken extremely seriously in some circles, far more than in Britain. I'm not sure I go down the Russian interference line in that tweet Helix shared, although one of those serious circles is certainly there, I just urge a lot of caution on taking their word, about anything. For what it's worth I largely agree with you about most of the rest of the actual discussion. I watched a documentary about Semenya a while back, it's hard not to have a huge amount of sympathy for her, while at the same time thinking yeah, maybe she shouldn't be competing. It's such a complicated subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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