The 'Trans' Issue.

[HeliX]

39 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

@TheTeapot I get why countries would corruptly attempt to get their boxers gold medals. I struggle to see why they would corruptly try to get a boxer from another country with a 51/9 record in regional boxing disqualified. 

Is she such a threatening contender to warrant such a plot? Especially one which can be disproved with a blood test?

Doesn't make sense to me. 

Did you get a chance to read this? 

 

 

[Chinahand]

Of course, to be frank it just states she's a CIS woman. That is the issue which isn't known and is the subject of the controversy. 

You think this is down to the Russians trying to smear her because she beat a Russian? 

It took years to understand the issues around Caster Semenya I suspect this will be the same in these cases. They also apply to the Taiwanese boxer. Did she also beat a Russian?

This tweet isn't very helpful. 

Edited to add. Why do you think this tweet is so much more accurate than any other. How does this person know she is a CIS female?

Edited August 3 by Chinahand

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

Of course, to be frank it just states she's a CIS woman. That is the issue which isn't known and is the subject of the controversy. 

You think this is down to the Russians trying to smear her because she beat a Russian? 

It took years to understand the issues around Caster Semenya I suspect this will be the same in these cases. They also apply to the Taiwanese boxer. Did she also beat a Russian?

This tweet isn't very helpful. 

Edited to add. Why do you think this tweet is so much more accurate than any other. How does this person know she is a CIS female?

Algeria is a country where being trans is illegal. The boxer will have been through lots of testing for multiple national and international competitions. Were she not cis do you think Algeria would be entering her in the Olympics?

[Chinahand]

Why are you going on about trans?

My understanding: Algeria does not have a sophisticated medical establishment. There is little to no provision of medical resources to DSD issues.

This woman has female external genitalia and has always been identified as female. 

Her sporting career has been at regional level, again in a region with little resourcing towards DSD and I suspect not a lot of drug testing (does standard drug testing attempt to identify DSD, I doubt it)

As she entered larger higher profile competitions testing became an issue and a problem was identified. 

I'm intrigued she dropped her appeal to the IBA findings.

It then gets political between the IBA and the IOC and with the culture wars. Thus the current shit show. 

You seem convinced these two athletes are facing entirely fake claims. 

I see how a problem can not be identified and in a complex environment emerge into controversy. 

We'll just have to wait and see but my understanding is that there is evidence of XY DSD. It may be disputed but it isn't discredited.

You seem certain it is discredited. I don't find your certainty convincing. 

[HeliX]

4 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Why are you going on about trans?

Er, 'cause you insisted it wasn't certain that she's cis!

Quote

My understanding: Algeria does not have a sophisticated medical establishment. There is little to no provision of medical resources to DSD issues.

This woman has female external genitalia and has always been identified as female. 

Her sporting career has been at regional level, again in a region with little resourcing towards DSD and I suspect not a lot of drug testing (does standard drug testing attempt to identify DSD, I doubt it)

As she entered larger higher profile competitions testing became an issue and a problem was identified. 

I'm intrigued she dropped her appeal to the IBA findings.

It then gets political between the IBA and the IOC and with the culture wars. Thus the current shit show. 

You seem convinced these two athletes are facing entirely fake claims. 

I see how a problem can not be identified and in a complex environment emerge into controversy. 

We'll just have to wait and see but my understanding is that there is evidence of XY DSD. It may be disputed but it isn't discredited.

You seem certain it is discredited. I don't find your certainty convincing. 

Standard drug testing assesses testosterone levels. She has never been excluded from competition as a result of a test, at the time of testing. Russia excluded her after competing. After her test results cleared her to compete, they retroactively decided that they no longer did after she beat the Russian. Go figure.

To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence of XY DSD. The one claim of XY results was from a Russian media outlet. The official documentation states that "something" on the test disqualified her, but it doesn't state what other than to state it wasn't testosterone.

[Chinahand]

8 minutes ago, HeliX said:

16 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Why are you going on about trans?

Er, 'cause you insisted it wasn't certain that she's cis!

I am categorically not saying she has transitioned. The legal status of transitioning in Algeria is totally irrelevant to the issue we are discussing. I am clueless why you raised it. 

Being XY DSD isn't a crime in Algeria. 

But that is the issue in this controversy. Someone with female genitalia but male biochemistry. Most likely via internal testes. 

It will be a terrible injustice if this is all stirred up lies. I really hope this isn't the case. 

But that doesn't change the debate about whether someone with XY DSD should compete with women who don't. 

[HeliX]

21 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I am categorically not saying she has transitioned. The legal status of transitioning in Algeria is totally irrelevant to the issue we are discussing. I am clueless why you raised it. 

Being XY DSD isn't a crime in Algeria. 

But that is the issue in this controversy. Someone with female genitalia but male biochemistry. Most likely via internal testes. 

It will be a terrible injustice if this is all stirred up lies. I really hope this isn't the case. 

But that doesn't change the debate about whether someone with XY DSD should compete with women who don't. 

I didn't, you insisted it was up for debate whether she was cis or not. It is not. She was identified female at birth and presents as female, which is the definition of cis.

 

 

 

Edited August 3 by HeliX

[Chinahand]

You put up a tweet which stated she was a CIS woman. 

I have repeatedly said if there is an issue then it is based around her being XY DSD. 

This is an understood medical condition where a person has female genitalia but XY chromosomes and with the biochemistry and developmental pathways that involves (other than their genitalia). 

What is a woman is a one complex question. What is fairness in sports is another. 

I think the explanation that having the biochemistry of a male gives you advantages over those who have the biochemistry of a female is compelling and a helpful way of examining these issues. 

Can someone with XY chromosomes compete fairly against someone with XX. 

Your gender and passport are not helpful in answering this, no matter what the IOC rules say. 

[HeliX]

11 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

You put up a tweet which stated she was a CIS woman. 

I have repeatedly said if there is an issue then it is based around her being XY DSD. 

This is an understood medical condition where a person has female genitalia but XY chromosomes and with the biochemistry and developmental pathways that involves (other than their genitalia). 

What is a woman is a one complex question. What is fairness in sports is another. 

I think the explanation that having the biochemistry of a male gives you advantages over those who have the biochemistry of a female is compelling and a helpful way of examining these issues. 

Can someone with XY chromosomes compete fairly against someone with XX. 

Your gender and passport are not helpful in answering this, no matter what the IOC rules say. 

Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your post but you said:

"Of course, to be frank it just states she's a CIS woman. That is the issue which isn't known and is the subject of the controversy."

The fact that she's cis is known. Maybe you meant to say that isn't the issue which isn't known? In which case fair enough.

Quote

Can someone with XY chromosomes compete fairly against someone with XX. 

No idea. Far outside my area of expertise, and something for sports scientists and regulating bodies to decide. But in the case of Imane Khelif, the sports scientists and regulating bodies have decided that she is fine to compete in the olympics.

[Chinahand]

Language is fascinating. Especially if you aren't an essentialist. 

My understanding is CIS means something along the lines of standard, usual. As opposed to transexuals or intersex who are not CIS. 

I don't think someone who has XY DSD is CIS. They may have a vagina but issues are more complicated than that. The simplest category would be intersex with both male and female characteristics. 

The tweet you put up ignored the issues and just stated she was CIS. If my understanding of CIS is correct that is stating away the very issue of controversy. 

 

[manxman1980]

10 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Language is fascinating. Especially if you aren't an essentialist. 

My understanding is CIS means something along the lines of standard, usual. As opposed to transexuals or intersex who are not CIS. 

I don't think someone who has XY DSD is CIS. They may have a vagina but issues are more complicated than that. The simplest category would be intersex with both male and female characteristics. 

The tweet you put up ignored the issues and just stated she was CIS. If my understanding of CIS is correct that is stating away the very issue of controversy. 

 

Isn't that the problem with the whole Trans debate?

People think in binary terms when it comes to a person's sex.  Penis and testes = Male, Vagina = female.  

Then when you introduce XY DSD, gender identity and sexuality into the mix people become lost and confused.  

That confusion leads to anger and demanding that things should be simple and binary.

[Chinahand]

Life is complicated. 

The vast vast majority of sexually-reproducing organisms have 2 sexes produced via two distinct development pathways which results (if an organism proceeds correctly down the pathway), during their fertile period, in their producing either small motile sperm or large eggs. 

The mechanisms deciding which pathway an organism goes down are legion in different species: chromosomes, temperature, environment. 

The sex binary IS very strong in humans. 99.99% of humans are on one or the other of the pathways. There is no natural way for humans to change pathways (unlike animals like clownfish). A few people in the 10s of thousands have development abnormalities which mean they do not proceed down one or the other of the pathways but get stuck in either one or the other or both. 

Sexual reproduction is very sensitive to developmental errors - which is why hybrids are often infertile and likely explains why the sex binary is so strong. Most abnormalities aren't viable. 

Life is complex. None of this says people shouldn't be able change their gender identity, or cut off or add to various parts of their bodies. We are complex beings and the naturalist fallacy should not dictate how we live. 

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

Language is fascinating. Especially if you aren't an essentialist. 

My understanding is CIS means something along the lines of standard, usual. As opposed to transexuals or intersex who are not CIS. 

I don't think someone who has XY DSD is CIS. They may have a vagina but issues are more complicated than that. The simplest category would be intersex with both male and female characteristics. 

The tweet you put up ignored the issues and just stated she was CIS. If my understanding of CIS is correct that is stating away the very issue of controversy. 

 

Cisgendered = assigned the same sex at birth as you currently identify as. So Khelif is cisgendered by the generally accepted definition. Cis and trans really refer to gender identity as a comparison to birth sex, they don't provide any information about a person's chromosomes or anything else - as most people will never know anything about their own anyway.

[Chinahand]

20 minutes ago, HeliX said:

most people will never know anything about their own [chromosomes] anyway.

If you have reproduced successfully you know what chromosomes you have to a precision of higher than 1 in 100,000,000

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

If you have reproduced successfully you know what chromosomes you have to a precision of higher than 1 in 100,000,000

If Khelif is XY DSD she's potentially still able to reproduce. Plus about 10% of the population is infertile. But you're right I probably should've said something other than chromosomes, but there are lots of people with genetics that are abnormal one way or another who can reproduce just fine.