quilp Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Yet more 'right-on' lunacy from Brighton and Hove council... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/10/04/parents-wont-let-son-wear-skirt-may-have-referred-social-services/ Is this right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, quilp said: ...social justice warriors. Ah the 2018 version of Godwin's Law.... Let's call it Right Wing's Law..."As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a person's being called a Social Justice Warrior or SJW, increases." I'm out at this point. You see the same thing when discussing anything that apparently hurts manbabys manginas. Be it female leads in films, gay rights, Trump, etc it will always rear its ugly head, and surprise, surprise as to which of the usual suspects it turned out to be. Edited December 21, 2018 by RIchard Britten 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, RIchard Britten said: Ah the 2018 version of Godwin's Law.... Let's call it Right Wing's Law..."As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a person's being called a Social Justice Warrior or SJW, increases." I'm out at this point. You see the same thing when discussing anything that apparently hurts manbabys manginas. Be it female leads in films, gay rights, Trump, etc it will always rear its ugly head, and surprise, surprise as to which of the usual suspects it turned out to be. Lol. Another piss-poor attempt at shutting-down legitimate debate, again. Without reading any links, and offering-up nothing but derision and predictable cliché. Edited December 21, 2018 by quilp 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Looks like he's flounced Quilp, which some people might argue is typical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Down Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: Looks like he's flounced Quilp, which some people might argue is typical. does this mean he'll be gone for a few months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Your hopes are my hopes. He's like the kid that hangs round with the older boys and you can't get rid of him. Someone give him some sweets and tell him to f**k off won't ya... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 We're missing LDV (former poster here) in this thread. He educated me on it somewhat a few years ago and seems pretty clued up on the whole issue. My understanding is that the whole of gender/sexuality can be described by 4 dimensions, each of which is a continuum rather than a discrete M/F, gay/straight etc. Then there is the concept of fluidity - some may vary where they are on each spectrum. For a straight, phenotypically/genotypically/psychologically male individual like me, and I suspect most of the posters in this thread, these may appear to be an alien concepts, and it's taking time to become mainstream. The concept of sexual preference is well established I think. Wasn't always. I think most people these days are happy to accept that there are people of whatever gender who can fancy men, women, or both along a continuum of preference. When it comes to gender, particularly from the psychological perspective, it's not. Perhaps in a decade or two the idea of genetic male 'feeling' female will be more accepted, and seen as normal, such as homosexuality is today. With regard to sports there are certainly issues to be worked out. It would clearly be ridiculous for Roger Federer to now self-define as a woman just to get a few more grand slam titles under his belt. Perhaps in the future all sports will be all-gender inclusive, with no men's/women's division? And I certainly agree with the OP that any irreversible procedures to do with gender are not undertaken until adult. What age that is though is a difficult one! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) Last time this subject came up I said that the arguments used against transsexuals sounded very much like the anti-gay arguments of the 90's. I felt that the way that thread went any one contributing who felt that it was reasonable to recognise wasn't welcome. Quilp told me to shut up. It seems the purpose of this thread is for people who believe the recognition and support for transsexuals is an "issue" that needs to be tackled. People who see this as a problem are welcome, people who don't see that there is a problem are unwelcome. Quilp will call them names like SJW because he likes to put labels on people because it makes it easier to marginalise that group and when this is pointed out you accuse them of trying to shut-down debate. Then people perceive that the one poster providing a different perspective has left the thread people are pleased. Do you want to talk amongst yourselves or are other opinions welcome? edited to add - Wrighty's post appeared whilst I was writing. Good post. Edited December 21, 2018 by Declan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 If I self-defined as Napoleon I'd expect to be sectioned, not supplied with a bicorn hat. Never mind the adults wrighty, what about the agenda for kids? Especially when it comes to the policies of Brighton and Hove council, as linked earlier? You have kids, if one suddenly suggested they were so inclined, would you prefer to be in control of their situation or would you be happy with the over-arching measures expressed by B&H social services and lose parental power over that child's destiny and psychological awareness? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, quilp said: If I self-defined as Napoleon I'd expect to be sectioned, not supplied with a bicorn hat. Never mind the adults wrighty, what about the agenda for kids? Especially when it comes to the policies of Brighton and Hove council, as linked earlier? You have kids, if one suddenly suggested they were so inclined, would you prefer to be in control of their situation or would you be happy with the over-arching measures expressed by B&H social services and lose parental power over that child's destiny and psychological awareness? Not sure I like the phrase 'parental power over that child's destiny...' - as a parent I'd like to think that I'd support and educate my children such that social service input would not be required. I'd also like to think that I'm close enough to them to discuss any issues they may have and help them through them. Let's say I had a 14 year old son who decided he was a girl, wanted to wear a skirt, and wanted to get changed with the girls and play netball with them. I'd talk to him. I'd hopefully accept his feelings, let him wear a skirt (but warn him he'd get the piss ripped out of him for the rest of his schooldays and suggest he stuck with trousers), but explain that he couldn't get changed with the girls because of how that'd make them feel. We'd have to work something out with the school, who would hopefully be as understanding. He'd probably be good at netball as he'd likely be bigger than most of his opponents. If instead I beat him with the buckle end of a belt to 'knock this trans-nonsense out of him' I'd expect social services and police to get involved. Equally, if I took him abroad for a surgical 'correction' before he was fully mature and certain of the situation, and able to give informed consent, I'd expect social services and police to investigate that too. There are nuances to most situations. The Telegraph is reporting on the extremes - teacher warned by the police for refusing to call a phenotypic girl 'he' for example. While these issues are being worked out by society you will get extreme views from both ends of the debating spectrum. Give it time. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitten Mittens Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, wrighty said: With regard to sports there are certainly issues to be worked out. It would clearly be ridiculous for Roger Federer to now self-define as a woman just to get a few more grand slam titles under his [or her] belt. Fixed it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, wrighty said: Let's say I had a 14 year old son who decided he was a girl, wanted to wear a skirt, and wanted to get changed with the girls and play netball with them. I'd talk to him. I'd hopefully accept his feelings, let him wear a skirt (but warn him he'd get the piss ripped out of him for the rest of his schooldays and suggest he stuck with trousers), but explain that he couldn't get changed with the girls because of how that'd make them feel. We'd have to work something out with the school, who would hopefully be as understanding. He'd probably be good at netball as he'd likely be bigger than most of his opponents. If instead I beat him with the buckle end of a belt to 'knock this trans-nonsense out of him' I'd expect social services and police to get involved. Equally, if I took him abroad for a surgical 'correction' before he was fully mature and certain of the situation, and able to give informed consent, I'd expect social services and police to investigate that too. I think I'd follow your approach. However, if you have a child that's been adamant from a very young age that they were the other gender. When you've tried your approach and they're still very unhappy and convince you that they'll not change their mind. Is there then circumstances where it would be better to act early, before the changes of puberty, for example. Is it better to let a boy become a man only to become a woman at 18 or help a boy to become a girl that grows into a woman? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Declan said: However, if you have a child that's been adamant from a very young age that they were the other gender. When you've tried your approach and they're still very unhappy and convince you that they'll not change their mind. Is there then circumstances where it would be better to act early, before the changes of puberty, for example. Is it better to let a boy become a man only to become a woman at 18 or help a boy to become a girl that grows into a woman? I really don't know. It's a difficult question, and no doubt there will be opposing points of view. Personally I'd find it difficult to countenance surgical castration, but perhaps a pharmacological testosterone suppression would be in order, although even that has many downsides. I'm thankful that in my real life these problems have not arisen. It is a very good question though. @quilp - what do you think? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 The last few posts are getting to the nub of the problem. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is indeed a genuine issue to address here and some of the cases are heartrending, but it is a very limited number. Unfortunately, as always, there is undoubtedly a large contingent of attention seeking "me too" fellow travellers, and the authorities appear not to know where to draw the line for fear of upsetting the pc police. As for Richard, he is the archetypal SJW. He can be pretty offensive too, so he doesn't need defending. Disagree with him and you get such as: "You see the same thing when discussing anything that apparently hurts manbabys manginas." That is pretty adolescent, no? Typical SJW histrionics designed to shock, offend, belittle and deter further comment. These people all use this sort of language. There is probably a thank tank of forty year old teenagers somewhere coming up with new ones. I just feel embarrassed for them. Having said that, I would not cheer the departure of any poster. We have few enough, and the wider the selection of views the better the debate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 hours ago, wrighty said: I really don't know. It's a difficult question, and no doubt there will be opposing points of view. Personally I'd find it difficult to countenance surgical castration, but perhaps a pharmacological testosterone suppression would be in order, although even that has many downsides. I'm thankful that in my real life these problems have not arisen. It is a very good question though. @quilp - what do you think? I think like the others on here you didn't read the link to the Brighton and Hove model and its intentions. Parents who fail to comply face being relieved of their oversight by social services and police. If this is the direction things are heading the ideology must be vigorously opposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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