Roger Mexico Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: It's telling that DOI get flack but the specialist consultants who incompetently designed the Prom, and the contractors who mucked up the rest, don't get any criticism. Same with the flumes, the DOI hire specialists and get abuse when the specialists don't do the job properly. But who appoints and monitors those consultants and contractors? And do they choose consultants who specialise in those very particular types of projects or some generalist who may be as clueless as they are about the specialism? It was notable with the Prom that they went yet again with Burroughs, who had been their consultants on a long list of projects on the Isle of Man: Airport Baggage Handling, the new Control Tower, the Runway Extension, the new Radar System, IRIS and numerous projects for the Manx railways. A list with a lot of diversity and being either notorious failures and/or unnecessary in the first place. But obviously the only go-to guys if you're the DoI. I'm not sure who the DESC got to do the refurbishment of the pools. There are consultants who specialise in just this sort of job, but maybe they decided to do it themselves or got in a generalist. Certainly no one seems to be bragging about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 34 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: It's more at procurement stage, really. The people doing the procurement aren't engineers. On both sides, before we get the anti-CS ranting, so we get sales teams promising things that can't physically be delivered or can't be delivered at the promised price. A mate works as an engineer in aerospace and despairs of her sales teams selling things that are literally physically impossible in a commercial airliner. But when you "cut the CS headcount" you lose your specialists, everyone becomes a generalist and you get contractors and consultants in for the specialists. The DOI project managers I've worked with are on the ball but they're not specialists and have to rely on the contractors to do their job properly. It's telling that DOI get flack but the specialist consultants who incompetently designed the Prom, and the contractors who mucked up the rest, don't get any criticism. Same with the flumes, the DOI hire specialists and get abuse when the specialists don't do the job properly. Fair comment, but the reason we employ engineers and surveyors is that they are meant to be the link to the department with at least a smattering of knowledge about the projects in hand. It may be some sort of weakness of government that they are failing, or it could be a failing of responsibility? Whatever, it seems to be coming to a head over the past few years? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: I'm not sure who the DESC got to do the refurbishment of the pools. There are consultants who specialise in just this sort of job, but maybe they decided to do it themselves or got in a generalist. Certainly no one seems to be bragging about it. NK Joinery, who had never taken on a similar task before. They also had the contract for footpaths. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Roger Mexico said: It was notable with the Prom that they went yet again with Burroughs, who had been their consultants on a long list of projects on the Isle of Man: Burroughs are widely used in the UK too, so there are definitely questions about how and why they can't or won't do the job properly here. Just as there are questions why Auldyn (prom) and NK (flumes/pool) also can't or won't do the job properly. FWIW I think the issues are at procurement. The people doing the buying don't know the engineering details. The people doing the selling also don't know the engineering details. So you end up with companies selling the impossible to people who don't know it's impossible. The solution is, as always, specialist staff on the government payroll. But they cost, and so they're easily dispensed with, and you end up with senior managers who both don't know the details (understandably, in many but not all cases) but also don't have access to impartial people who do know the details. The airport is as good an example of this as any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, Max Power said: It may be some sort of weakness of government that they are failing, or it could be a failing of responsibility? Most of them left years ago, I thought? The DOI seems to be a department strong on administrators but short on technical expertise these days. IMO this is because the DOI is simply too big to be manageable. Unless it gets restructured back into its constituent parts, Nick Black's replacement is going to struggle too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Duck of Atholl Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: Burroughs are widely used in the UK too, so there are definitely questions about how and why they can't or won't do the job properly here. Just as there are questions why Auldyn (prom) and NK (flumes/pool) also can't or won't do the job properly. FWIW I think the issues are at procurement. The people doing the buying don't know the engineering details. The people doing the selling also don't know the engineering details. So you end up with companies selling the impossible to people who don't know it's impossible. The solution is, as always, specialist staff on the government payroll. But they cost, and so they're easily dispensed with, and you end up with senior managers who both don't know the details (understandably, in many but not all cases) but also don't have access to impartial people who do know the details. The airport is as good an example of this as any. It wasn’t procured via the regular procurement team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 19 minutes ago, Max Power said: NK Joinery, who had never taken on a similar task before. They also had the contract for footpaths. Now NK Construction apparently. But I wonder if they had much to do with the design or were just recruited to do the actual fitting. A quick google shows all sorts of UK firms who specialise in such work. Obviously you would want to look at those with a history of doing similar jobs in local authority pools. It wouldn't take much knowledge or research to draw up a short-list and and contact them, but it seems too much for those in charge at DESC or DoI. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 On 12/30/2021 at 7:03 PM, ManxTaxPayer said: I heard that someone accidentally pumped concentrated sulphuric acid into a flume instead of water, then this poor little girl went down it and by the time she reached the bottom she had completely disappeared. I don't know if it's true but it was probably on Facebook. People pay a lot of money to go on rides in Alton Towers to get scared totally witless. We have a similar facility on our doorstep at a fraction of the price. Why are people complaining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 51 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: People pay a lot of money to go on rides in Alton Towers to get scared totally witless. We have a similar facility on our doorstep at a fraction of the price. Why are people complaining? Possibly because there's a distinct difference between being 'scared totally witless ' and getting your head split open . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Numbnuts said: Possibly because there's a distinct difference between being 'scared totally witless ' and getting your head split open . Have you seen the litany of accidents that have occurred in the last few years in “ theme parks”. throughout the world.? Edited January 1, 2022 by The Voice of Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hissingsid Posted January 1, 2022 Author Share Posted January 1, 2022 It is not a theme park it is supposed to be a safe place for children to excercise and have fun. It cost plenty I think it is not unreasonable to expect certain safety standards. Knocks on the head are not funny in any shape or form and parents are right to expect their children to be safe. It has only been in use for a few weeks hardly wear and tear. The offhand way this has been dealt with is disgusting. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Have you seen the litany of accidents that have occurred in the last few years in “ theme parks”. throughout the world.? Its a glorified slide though ! As mentioned above open only a few weeks and its clearly got a problem despite it taking years to arrive and also at great additional cost . Its a fuck up and thats being kind . 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: People pay a lot of money to go on rides in Alton Towers to get scared totally witless. We have a similar facility on our doorstep at a fraction of the price. Why are people complaining? If this was something that Joe Taxpayer was offering and had injured children (allegedly!) you can bet your bottom dollar that the likes of you will be whinging, whining and moaning like there is no tomorrow. The police would be involved and the full machinery of IOMG will put upon the said business. Then add in a visit from Health and Safety, and possibly charges of a possible breach of the H&S regulations. Im sure that lovely business owner will enjoy his little outing in front of that nice Deemster, and enjoy the bitter aftertaste when he opens the envelope containing the advocates bill. In the case of the NSC perhaps it’s time that both IOMG actually took the rap, and face the consequences. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 41 minutes ago, 2112 said: If this was something that Joe Taxpayer was offering and had injured children (allegedly!) you can bet your bottom dollar that the likes of you will be whinging, whining and moaning like there is no tomorrow. “ The likes of me”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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