Promenade - Megathread

[Roger Mexico]

7 hours ago, John Wright said:

I travel lots in normal times. Lots of driving. I’ve never met a new road layout I’ve not been able to cope with, even when driving on the “wrong side”

And that makes you a very bad person to assess whether this new design will work or not.  Unless you are suggesting that use of the Prom should be restricted to those with a similar length and breadth of experience, road design has to be usable by those much less well qualified.  It's not whether the best 5% will fins it easy, it's whether the bottom 5% will.

6 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think an island wide compulsory 'Roundabout Seminar' should be held. I'm sick to death of the selfish idiots who rush across, horn blaring and two fingers to everyone! Likewise, some of the timid toads who sit there all day until all traffic has subsided need a bit of a testosterone jab! 

Again if you need special seminars to tell people (who have all passed the normal driving test) how to cope with particular features, than that means the features aren't working.  At best they are being used illegally, in which case greater enforcement is needed. Otherwise  it should be admitted that better design is what is required.

It's also worth pointing out that what is being implemented at the bottom of Broadway isn't "shared space".  That is characterised by an absence of marking and features, the idea being that road users then prioritise reacting to each other's behaviour over following signs.  Instead the DoI are loading the area with all sorts of non-standard markings and infrastructure and users will either concentrate on those or just go ahead and do whatever they want, safe in the knowledge that it can't be illegal.

[John Wright]

4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

And that makes you a very bad person to assess whether this new design will work or not.  Unless you are suggesting that use of the Prom should be restricted to those with a similar length and breadth of experience, road design has to be usable by those much less well qualified.  It's not whether the best 5% will fins it easy, it's whether the bottom 5% will.

Again if you need special seminars to tell people (who have all passed the normal driving test) how to cope with particular features, than that means the features aren't working.  At best they are being used illegally, in which case greater enforcement is needed. Otherwise  it should be admitted that better design is what is required.

It's also worth pointing out that what is being implemented at the bottom of Broadway isn't "shared space".  That is characterised by an absence of marking and features, the idea being that road users then prioritise reacting to each other's behaviour over following signs.  Instead the DoI are loading the area with all sorts of non-standard markings and infrastructure and users will either concentrate on those or just go ahead and do whatever they want, safe in the knowledge that it can't be illegal.

You’ve assumed I’m in the top 5% rather than the bottom 5%.  You’ve never seen me drive.

The shared space will extend, as I understand it, from Greensills to the Central. Until we’ve seen the finished job and signage. 

Ive never seen a shared space without some demarcation indications.

Fully agree the concentric markings are wrong, on principle.

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Again if you need special seminars to tell people (who have all passed the normal driving test) how to cope with particular features, than that means the features aren't working.  At best they are being used illegally, in which case greater enforcement is needed. Otherwise  it should be admitted that better design is what is required.

Agreed, but I was referring to the general use of the existing roundabouts, which is abysmal in most cases. If they can't get these right, what hope is there for our 'Swiss Roll' roundabouts?

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

The vast majority of drivers will be absolutely fine.  Which is what matters.

Despite what Roger Mexico says you simply undertake projects working to the limitations of 5% of the users.   

[Roger Mexico]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

You’ve assumed I’m in the top 5% rather than the bottom 5%.  You’ve never seen me drive.

The shared space will extend, as I understand it, from Greensills to the Central. Until we’ve seen the finished job and signage. 

Ive never seen a shared space without some demarcation indications.

Fully agree the concentric markings are wrong, on principle.

Well I just pointed to your self-declared extensive experience - I didn't say which group it meant you ended up in.  But if the cap fits...

The point about shared space is that markings are absent and the only demarcation is usually to distinguish the space itself and perhaps pedestrian-only areas (though even these will be at the same level).  There may possibly be some markings regarding parking, but usually parking is not permitted anywhere in the area.  It's a long way from the multi-coloured mishmash they continue to install.

[Derek Flint]

53 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Same on the Italian Greek ferries that go Ancona to Igoumenitsa to Patras. And that’s made worse because they don’t always load in the right order. You get to Igoumenitsa and half the cars want to disembark. The other half are staying on until Patras. I got stuck parked behind a Patras bound one. There was no way to back up. Had to wait until they found the owner. No supervision loading or unloading. Bedlam

Venice airport. Join queue for check in. Halfway through, it switches to another desk several lanes to the right.

wonder why whole thing is so slow? Turns out that every time you put a bag on the conveyer, the whole bank of desks shut down.

[Numbnuts]

Once again I find it incredible that so many of you are discussing shared space , how we all are going to manage the roundabout/roundel or whatever its getting called. Most I think will be fine but it does look ugly and not sure about the design and other aspects . But you all , or most are missing the terrible quality of the work on said space. Its really bad elsewear too but the finish on this area for what is relatively a straight forward job is disgusting and should not be accepted . They will be back to fix the bad workmanship in under a year I'm sure .  

Edited June 20, 2021 by Numbnuts

[Numbnuts]

Colour of concrete , joins on the various places and gaps and cracks , I could go on ! Would anyone on here accept this if it was on your path or driveway ? And pay for it ? 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Numbnuts

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Numbnuts said:

Once again I find it incredible that so many of you are discussing shared space , how we all are going to manage the roundabout/roundel or whatever its getting called. Most I think will be fine but it does look ugly and not sure about the design and other aspects . But you all , or most are missing the terrible quality of the work on said space. Its really bad elsewear too but the finish on this area for what is relatively a straight forward job is disgusting and should not be accepted . They will be back to fix the bad workmanship in under a year I'm sure .  

II think even many of the scheme's supporters have agreed with that, depressingly we're not discussing it because shoddy workmanship is now being taken as a given.  As is the fact they will continue to keep digging it up and making it even worse.

There's one additional point regarding the shared space.  What demarcation there is in such designs is often done by using mild colour differentials - between dark and light grey paving for instance.  If there are all sorts of variation in shading due entirely to poor planning or specification or workmanship, then it becomes even more confusing as people don't know how to 'read' the differences.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Roger Mexico
Missing word

[Barlow]

Why wasn't the Promenade carried out in sections? Even simply Loch . . Central. . .  Harris. . .  Queens. . . or whatever. It's so obvious and just about anyone would have done it that way. 

It's a question that has been asked a number of times but no answer has ever been suggested.

Maybe it was an idea of the contractor, so they could nab all those guaranteed £millions from the very start?

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

6 minutes ago, Barlow said:

Why wasn't the Promenade carried out in sections? Even simply Loch . . Central. . .  Harris. . .  Queens. . . or whatever. It's so obvious and just about anyone would have done it that way. 

It's a question that has been asked a number of times but no answer has ever been suggested.

Maybe it was an idea of the contractor, so they could nab all those guaranteed £millions from the very start?

That's deluded.

[Barlow]

16 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

That's deluded.

Carrying out the whole scheme at once is deluded.

Obviously.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Barlow

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

1 hour ago, Barlow said:

Carrying out the whole scheme at once is deluded.

Obviously.

If the whole scheme was carried out at once how has the prom been continually open to traffic?

[Barlow]

Just now, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

If the whole scheme was carried out at once how has the prom been continually open to traffic?

Yeah OK, you're right of course. The Promenade scheme is indeed going just tickety tickety boo.

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

Just now, Barlow said:

Yeah OK, you're right of course. The Promenade scheme is indeed going just tickety tickety boo.

I never said it was tickety boo.  It's a shambles.

But to suggest the whole prom has been closed is a blatant lie.