Promenade - Megathread

[Ham_N_Eggs]

7 hours ago, James Blonde said:

The removal of the pedestrian guardrails around the crossings on Loch Prom and around Sam Webbs should be a serious concern for the new DOI CEO. 

 

It was there for a reason and now people just step out into traffic. 

That zebra crossing by Sam Webb's is quite a worry. I have witnessed many pedestrians just stepping out onto it, often without looking, forcing cars to break heavily. 

[Gladys]

8 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

The Broadway one is bad too. Seen a few near misses there as well. They’re going to have to be re-done at some stage although as usual they’ll probably let someone die first before they back down and admit they were a stupid idea. 

At least the Broadway crossing has lights.

There has to be some huge humble pie in DOI, not next week, or next month, but by lunchtime today. These are issues that can actually have a devastating effect, as we have sadly seen. 

[John Wright]

16 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

The Broadway one is bad too. Seen a few near misses there as well. They’re going to have to be re-done at some stage although as usual they’ll probably let someone die first before they back down and admit they were a stupid idea. 

Let’s be brutally honest. Roundabouts are an accident waiting to happen on the Island. Traditional or mini. I see near accidents every time I drive out.

Many people ignore “give way”. Especially coming into Quarterbridge from the south or driving across the Braddan Church one going west.

Its no different.

I drove along the prom yesterday, North to South. Apart from being disappointed about how much is left to do ( it’s 7 weeks since my last trip-I’ve been away ) I was quite impressed. 

I still reserve judgment.

I’ve driven on shared spaces, roundels and other non traditional layouts in the last 7 weeks. In Spain and Bulgaria. They seemed to work. I had no difficulty.

Ive seen weird placing of crossings near roundabouts, strange road markings, and, often, from the perspective of a right hand drive car in a right hand side carriageway country. I think it’s more a dislike of change.
 

 

[Happier diner]

8 hours ago, Gladys said:

And then sort out the crossings on the prom.  We have lived with crossings that appear not to be functioning because of the network of those metal fences, not to mention the difference between grey and charcoal as against a kind of muted beige.

Every crossing on the prom from Broadway is another potential tragedy, who knows which has a pedestrian waiting to cross or which is open?  Can you see them through the fences? 

Just bonkers, and as shown by the St John's tragedy, it seems that it will only take another serious incident for a bit of sense to be brought to bear. Or not. 

@Gladys you are wrong to speculate on the St John's accident. There are unknowns. You don't know it was anything to do with the crossing. I have cycled on there many many times and at no time have I thought I had right of way. Cycles have no right of way on a zebra crossing anyway, regardless of what it looks like.

You may be correct and the crossing should be changed to a pelican crossing with lights but that's  different matter. You do not know the details of the tragedy and its poor form to score points by citing this as a precedent for future accidents in what is a different situation on the promenade. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Zarley said:

 

If it's a recipe for confusion for experienced drivers, can you imagine what it's like for a learner driver? Recipe for absolute disaster. 

And who's betting that if a young driver is the first to have a serious accident on the prom, the boy*-racer-lock-'em-up brigade will be out in force even if it isn't strictly the kid's fault, but rather the DoI's?

*He/him she/her they/them 🙃

Regardless of the design of the crossings it will be the drivers fault. 

[CallMeCurious]

3 minutes ago, Gladys said:

At least the Broadway crossing has lights.

There has to be some huge humble pie in DOI, not next week, or next month, but by lunchtime today. These are issues that can actually have a devastating effect, as we have sadly seen. 

Have they started the safety audit of crossings that the coroner asked/told them to do after the death at St Johns? Before more families are left grieving or traumatised because of 'culture'.

Who is the person responsible for these designs? Who signs off on them? Why if they are such a great idea is the 'artist' not being lauded for their contribution to public safety?

Where is the HSE on the St Johns death? This wasn't just the pattern in the road, there was sheer negligence in not having even temporary signage up. 

Every project in government is required to determine if they need a planning supervisor responsible for health and safety (yes confusing title but the job isn't about planning permission but palnning the works safely). Was there one? If not why not? If there was, where are they now? Still supervising? Oe moved on to another department or retired early.

With no accountability for this death where is the motivation to change the culture that led to it? We laugh at mispelled lettering on the road or roll our eyes when they strip the lines of the road at the start of winter as people commute in darkness both ends of the day. But those trivial mistakes speak to the competence and supervision of the people into whos hands we put all of our loved ones going from A to B.

The reason these deaths are tragic is they are not 'accidents', they could have been foreseen and avoided

This wasn't a branch falling from a tree, an escaped animal or oil on the road from an engine fault. Someone chose to put that street art on a 40mph stretch of road. Who? Even if it was a design by comittee who are the members?

The only small hope is that there is a HSE investigation ongoing, that the families involved are suing for compensation and this isn't going to be swept under the carpet.

 

 

[Gladys]

13 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

@Gladys you are wrong to speculate on the St John's accident. There are unknowns. You don't know it was anything to do with the crossing. I have cycled on there many many times and at no time have I thought I had right of way. Cycles have no right of way on a zebra crossing anyway, regardless of what it looks like.

You may be correct and the crossing should be changed to a pelican crossing with lights but that's  different matter. You do not know the details of the tragedy and its poor form to score points by citing this as a precedent for future accidents in what is a different situation on the promenade. 

Speculation?  Let's not worry about the outcome of the recent inquest.

Poor form?  No. Shall we keep in mind that these daft decisions can actually have very real consequences?

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Speculation?  Let's not worry about the outcome of the recent inquest.

Poor form?  No. Shall we keep in mind that these daft decisions can actually have very real consequences?

The inquest merely said the design should be reviewed. It did not say it was the cause of the accident. It has not been reviewed.

Like I said I don't like the crossing but I never thought it was dangerous.

[Gladys]

Just now, Happier diner said:

The inquest merely said the design should be reviewed. It did not say it was the cause of the accident. It has not been reviewed.

Like I said I don't like the crossing but I never thought it was dangerous.

I think a bit more was said than that.  Inadequate signage was an issue. 

 

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

The inquest has already made it clear the crossing was inadequately marked and controlled.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-59013779

But recording a verdict of accidental death. 

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I think a bit more was said than that.  Inadequate signage was an issue. 

 

It was a terrible accident. However for the last 15 years or so there has been no crossing at all and no accidents. 

It's an awful thing to discuss on here and very emotive.

Like I keep saying I don't like the crossing and I didnt like it before. 

My point is that you are making cheap shots and they are nothing to do with the prom.

[Gladys]

9 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

It was a terrible accident. However for the last 15 years or so there has been no crossing at all and no accidents. 

It's an awful thing to discuss on here and very emotive.

Like I keep saying I don't like the crossing and I didnt like it before. 

My point is that you are making cheap shots and they are nothing to do with the prom.

No crossing is better than a confused crossing. 

Try telling the parents of the lad that these are cheap shots.  I voice real concerns that these innovative designs are going to result in something very unpleasant.  They have everything to do with the prom.  These are unconventional features.  Let's face it, even the former Minister didn't know what the roundels were (treat them like any other roundabout) only to have a correction from the police that they are unmarked crossings. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Gladys

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

No crossing is better than a confused crossing. Agreed

Try telling the parents of the lad that these are cheap shots.  I voice real concerns that these innovative design are going to result in something very unpleasant.  They have everything to do with the prom.  These are unconventional features.  Let's face it, even the former Minister didn't know what the roundels were (treat them like any other roundabout) only to have a correction from the police that they are unmarked crossing. 

But Gladys, there are no crossings on the prom that bear any resemblance to the one on the heritage trail. That's the only poi t I am making.

The one on the heritage trail is not a crossing at all. It's just some painted lines. 

I guess you are saying that unless crossings are real crossings then confusion could ensue. Which is a fair point and is your view. The concept of shared spaces though is that uncertainty makes drivers go slower and pedestrians take more care. Time will tell. However the days of railings along footpaths is long gone.

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

But Gladys, there are no crossings on the prom that bear any resemblance to the one on the heritage trail. That's the only poi t I am making.

The one on the heritage trail is not a crossing at all. It's just some painted lines. 

I guess you are saying that unless crossings are real crossings then confusion could ensue. Which is a fair point and is your view. The concept of shared spaces though is that uncertainty makes drivers go slower and pedestrians take more care. Time will tell. However the days of railings along footpaths is long gone.

They are not clear as to what they are.  To that extent, they are the same as St John's.

The concept of shared space is great in theory, but on a major thoroughfare?

Uncertainty may make drivers slow down and pedestrians take more care, but that is leaving a great deal to behaviour rather than clarity. 

 

[Hooly]

31 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I think a bit more was said than that.  Inadequate signage was an issue. 

 

I went via the railway lines from Union Mills to Crosby yesterday. The crossing at Glen Darragh Road is surprisingly open/unmarked etc especially following this inquest. One tiny blue sign saying give way. All gates wide open and inviting someone to go straight over the road. 

 

I know there should be common sense when approaching either this crossing or St John's, as you can see the road from a good distance back, but unfortunately 'you should have had some common sense before crossing the road' isn't an argument anymore. 

 

Is there any sort of plan in DoI to deal with these sort of things, or are the solely focusing on the St John's crossing because that's where the accident was?