Promenade - Megathread

[Hairy Poppins]

8 hours ago, La Colombe said:

One wouldn't be too surprised to find that they subsequently realised it was actually 3km worth. 

I did hear that DOI had ordered rails and it actually was only half of what was needed as they didn't realise a train track needs two rails....

[NoTail]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

By no means am I excusing the complete cock up that both projects have turned out to be, but what would an inquiry achieve? Can pensions be removed?  Doubt it.  Would it find anyone who was solely/primarily responsible?  Doubt that too as it was the 'system' which allowed bad decisions to be made and, remember, Liverpool was the 'will of Tynwald'. 

As for criminal behaviour, is there even a hint of that?  We do not have malfeasance in public office legislation, so what criminal offence has been committed?

Not happy at all, but throwing several million more down those rabbit holes just does not seem to be a good use of money.  

What is needed is real evidence that steps have been taken to avoid the same cock ups from happening again and when someone says 'names will be named', do that and also introduce legislation that carries real accountability, not just of the CS but of the politicos in charge. 

Liverpool, I am sure, was the result of political pressure to 'have a bit of the IOM in the UK'.  Why?  We have never had that, why is it needed now? 

Thanks for your thoughts.    I totally agree, just disappointed that we have seen many instances over many years of waste with no one being accountable. 

[Gladys]

10 minutes ago, Hairy Poppins said:

I did hear that DOI had ordered rails and it actually was only half of what was needed as they didn't realise a train track needs two rails....

Monorail?

[Gladys]

Just now, NoTail said:

Thanks for your thoughts.    I totally agree, just disappointed that we have seen many instances over many years of waste with no one being accountable. 

Couldn't agree with you more. 

 

[Harry Lamb]

49 minutes ago, Hairy Poppins said:

I did hear that DOI had ordered rails and it actually was only half of what was needed as they didn't realise a train track needs two rails....

Hence the need for a monorail, often flagged up on this forum.

[Gladys]

3 hours ago, Harry Lamb said:

Hence the need for a monorail, often flagged up on this forum.

Will be tricky, training the horses.

 

[emesde]

3 hours ago, Gladys said:

Will be tricky, training the horses.

 

There's plenty of "one trick ponies here"

Would it be difficult to train them as

"one track ponies".?

Now that would be a visitor attraction .

[La Colombe]

17 hours ago, La Colombe said:

One wouldn't be too surprised to find that they subsequently realised it was actually 3km worth. 

8 hours ago, Hairy Poppins said:

I did hear that DOI had ordered rails and it actually was only half of what was needed as they didn't realise a train track needs two rails....

Yes, that was the.... oh, never mind... 

[WTF]

9 hours ago, Hairy Poppins said:

I did hear that DOI had ordered rails and it actually was only half of what was needed as they didn't realise a train track needs two rails....

its worse than that , they forgot it was twin track, so only 1.5km really.

[Roger Mexico]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:29 PM, La Colombe said:

One wouldn't be too surprised to find that they subsequently realised it was actually 3km worth. 

I get the joke, though to be fair I was quoting from a rail-geek site which said in full:

THE MERS believes that enough grooved track (over 6km) was purchased from the aborted Mersey Light Rail scheme, to relay a double track for the Horse Tramway from Derby Castle through to the Victoria Clock

and we can probably trust them to know how to divide by two, even if the DoI can't.

But actually we do know how much and specifically how many rails were bought with this 'bargain'.  This from an article from January 2019:

Rails bought by Merseyside’s transport authority for its failed Merseytram scheme were sold for a third of their original cost.  Merseytravel’s ambitious scheme considered three different routes for trams, including one connecting the city to Liverpool John Lennon Airport.  But the final route chosen was between the city and Kirkby.

The authority spent £821,000 on steel rails for the trams to run on.  However, despite being given government backing in 2002, the scheme was shelved five years later after repeated delays and rising costs, with the final bill reaching £70m.

[...] Following the collapse of the plans, the rails were left in storage at the port of Immingham, on the River Humber.  Merseytravel’s then chief executive, Neil Scales, said the steel bought for rails could be sold at a profit. [...] However, steel prices tumbled during the recession.

In 2013, when Merseytram was finally abandoned, Merseytravel said the steel it bought was enough to create around 18.5km of single line rail, or approximately 9.25km of twin line track.

Now, following a Freedom of Information Act request by the Liverpool ECHO, the authority revealed the rails were eventually sold for £267,657.

In March 2015, an advert was placed in Tramways and Urban Transit magazine to sell the rails.

In April 2015, Merseytravel approved the sale of the steel.

• 700 rails were sold to the Isle of Man Government for £200,140 – £285.91 per rail
• 150 rails were sold to Crich Tramway Village museum in Derbyshire for £39,750 – £265 per rail
• 35 rails were sold to the Black Country Living Museum for £7,400 – £220 per rail
• 124 rails were sold to European Metal Recycling for £20,385.60 – £164.40 per rail

A Merseytravel spokesperson said: “Rails for the Merseytram project were first purchased in 2006, since when the price of steel has fallen significantly.

(Some format adjustment).  You'll notice that some people have the courage to pull a project in Liverpool when they can see it's going wildly over budget.  You'll also notice that, despite being the largest buyer by far, IOMG paid more than anyone else.

But this tells us that we bought 70% of "approximately 9.25km of twin line track" which would be about 6.5 km.

Edited June 9 by Roger Mexico
Add italics

[Numbnuts]

Didn’t extra track have to be sourced for the bends particularly by the bottom of broadway . I’m sure that the track lying by the Lifeboat station was all straight tracks. Remember going down to view it when questions were being asked about the Horse trams .

[Roger Mexico]

39 minutes ago, Numbnuts said:

Didn’t extra track have to be sourced for the bends particularly by the bottom of broadway . I’m sure that the track lying by the Lifeboat station was all straight tracks. Remember going down to view it when questions were being asked about the Horse trams .

That will be the case, especially as that would be specific to the particular layout they had planned.  If fact it may be that Ashford's Key's Question only refers to that:

17. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure –

What has happened to the additional tram track that was purchased for the horse tram to run the full length of Douglas Promenade; where that track is being stored; and what condition it is in.

as it mentions 'additional'.  But of course the real scandal is that this 'bargain' wasn't needed - there was no need to purchase track suitable for running electric trams on, it was all Longworth's fantasy that he had been forbidden to implement but went ahead anyway and did so in a predictably incompetent manner.  And was allowed to by Ministers too lazy or weak to stand up to him and civil servants who didn't want to challenge the principle that they should be allowed to do whatever they want.

[MadAsHell]

3 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

I get the joke, though to be fair I was quoting from a rail-geek site which said in full:

THE MERS believes that enough grooved track (over 6km) was purchased from the aborted Mersey Light Rail scheme, to relay a double track for the Horse Tramway from Derby Castle through to the Victoria Clock

and we can probably trust them to know how to divide by two, even if the DoI can't.

But actually we do know how much and specifically how many rails were bought with this 'bargain'.  This from an article from January 2019:

Rails bought by Merseyside’s transport authority for its failed Merseytram scheme were sold for a third of their original cost.  Merseytravel’s ambitious scheme considered three different routes for trams, including one connecting the city to Liverpool John Lennon Airport.  But the final route chosen was between the city and Kirkby.

The authority spent £821,000 on steel rails for the trams to run on.  However, despite being given government backing in 2002, the scheme was shelved five years later after repeated delays and rising costs, with the final bill reaching £70m.

[...] Following the collapse of the plans, the rails were left in storage at the port of Immingham, on the River Humber.  Merseytravel’s then chief executive, Neil Scales, said the steel bought for rails could be sold at a profit. [...] However, steel prices tumbled during the recession.

In 2013, when Merseytram was finally abandoned, Merseytravel said the steel it bought was enough to create around 18.5km of single line rail, or approximately 9.25km of twin line track.

Now, following a Freedom of Information Act request by the Liverpool ECHO, the authority revealed the rails were eventually sold for £267,657.

In March 2015, an advert was placed in Tramways and Urban Transit magazine to sell the rails.

In April 2015, Merseytravel approved the sale of the steel.

• 700 rails were sold to the Isle of Man Government for £200,140 – £285.91 per rail
• 150 rails were sold to Crich Tramway Village museum in Derbyshire for £39,750 – £265 per rail
• 35 rails were sold to the Black Country Living Museum for £7,400 – £220 per rail
• 124 rails were sold to European Metal Recycling for £20,385.60 – £164.40 per rail

A Merseytravel spokesperson said: “Rails for the Merseytram project were first purchased in 2006, since when the price of steel has fallen significantly.

(Some format adjustment).  You'll notice that some people have the courage to pull a project in Liverpool when they can see it's going wildly over budget.  You'll also notice that, despite being the largest buyer by far, IOMG paid more than anyone else.

But this tells us that we bought 70% of "approximately 9.25km of twin line track" which would be about 6.5 km.

We must have sent our top negotiators.

Merseytravel: £300 per rail? (trying to stifle laughter)

DoI: Done

Merseytravel: You have been!

[John Wright]

21 minutes ago, MadAsHell said:

We must have sent our top negotiators.

Merseytravel: £300 per rail? (trying to stifle laughter)

DoI: Done

Merseytravel: You have been!

It’s worth pointing out MerseyRail paid £800 each when they bought them!

[emesde]

It's also possible(I don't know) that the prices were "delivered prices". The cost of shipping heavy loads to IOM could have been included and wouldn't have been cheap.