Promenade - Megathread

[Roger Mexico]

4 hours ago, Dave Hedgehog said:

No more criticism please. Time Baker has spoken (possibly for the first time since he was elected) 

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/baker-rounds-on-prom-critics/

He's just flailing around isn't (literally if you look at the video)?  To be fair to Baker he's not long in the job of being nominally in charge of roads (from 1 October) and this particular mess predates this, but he shows no knowledge of what the situation is, even to the extent of having read the documents (though if he had, he might want to keep quiet about them).  As usual it's not exactly a well-informed or hard-hitting interview, but Glover does make a good point in asking where Harmer is.  Certain CoMin  members (see also Cregeen) seem to be developing the habit of hiding when things get tough.

But in a sense the interview is very revealing because it shows the way in which Manx politicians see their responsibilities (and how the media confirm this).  In the end what is wrong with the Prom project are technical issues that need technical solutions.  But there seems no awareness of even the need to do this (to bring in outside experts for example).  Instead everything is seem in terms of political spin, as if that would somehow magically fix things.  Don't send for another engineer, just assign another PR person.  Of course this bizarre way of looking at the world isn't confined to the Island, but we can't really afford to copy the foolishness of the UK.

One of the most revealing things about the Independent front page is that it appeared a good month after the FoI response had actually been published.  Presumably they were only aware of it when Buster made his comment or I dug out the details earlier in this thread.  Normally you'd expect the media to keep a close eye on FoI results, especially on such a controversial topic, but clearly they lack the resources or the will.  Even then the reaction is all about presentation and how people are affected immediately rather than whether the project is working and how much it will cost.  For example the Manx Radio interview doesn't pick up on claim in the report by Peter Robery that the whole design of the tram tracks is flawed (which also explains stuff like the noise) which means the solution that Baker proposes (which is literally cover up the cracks and hope) won't work.

[doc.fixit]

I wonder if there will be any resignations? Dream on I suppose?

[Non-Believer]

DOI seniors not actually involved in the Promenade scheme openly saying that it's the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks; and that the bullshit generators are on full throttle 

[Uhtred]

3 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

One of the most revealing things about the Independent front page is that it appeared a good month after the FoI response had actually been published.  Presumably they were only aware of it when Buster made his comment or I dug out the details earlier in this thread.  Normally you'd expect the media to keep a close eye on FoI results, especially on such a controversial topic, but clearly they lack the resources or the will.  Even then the reaction is all about presentation and how people are affected immediately rather than whether the project is working and how much it will cost.  For example the Manx Radio interview doesn't pick up on claim in the report by Peter Robery that the whole design of the tram tracks is flawed (which also explains stuff like the noise) which means the solution that Baker proposes (which is literally cover up the cracks and hope) won't work.

The absence of timely and correctly focussed media analysis Roger is because the local media are (a) poor and (b) particularly superficial. That’s expressly true of IOM ‘Newspapers’ and largely true of the Douglas Head collective.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Uhtred

[Non-Believer]

Don't forget (c) in respect of MR, ie on the Govt payroll.

[Numbnuts]

Baker's claim isn't in any way credible. I worked years ago ,many will remember it ,on the airship slab at Jurby and involved many many meters of concrete . A massive area and in all the pours we never had a crack in any area . There's clearly many issues with this contract and as the expert says there was additive in the mix ,no slump test carried out , and the concrete not wetted down as it dried to stop it drying out to quick . I don't get the DOI stating that the temp wasn't to hot to lay concrete as it clearly was with all these other non events being prevalent . Yes you can lay concrete in hot conditions for sure but not without precautions. I've always said I couldn't see Auldyn skimping on the plan and spec given to them as it would potentially cost them a fortune. This is where we are at now as I'm sure this is why the job is not progressing due to a blame game . And I'm sorry but there is no answer really to the cracks as it can't be just left as the expert has also said. Water will get into cracks and eventually crack the concrete when it freezes . Also as he said the sea water is likely to effect the reinforcement . In my humble opinion the cracked concrete will have to be removed with the rebar lifted . Another issue is the track in the first area was not lifted like recent tracks so if they have to do that also it's going to cost big time as will have to lift tarmac also to be able to lift the track . It is a clusterfuck for sure and clearly even though the DOI. have brought over apparently 4 engineers to bale them out they don't seem to have helped the problem. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Numbnuts

[Numbnuts]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

DOI seniors not actually involved in the Promenade scheme openly saying that it's the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks; and that the bullshit generators are on full throttle 

You sure ?? As in not being involved ? I can't see this as it's a massive job or is it now they have just jumped ship due again none of them being accountable ? That so needs changing over all of Government for sure and the quicker the better .

[Non-Believer]

59 minutes ago, Numbnuts said:

You sure ?? As in not being involved ? I can't see this as it's a massive job or is it now they have just jumped ship due again none of them being accountable ? That so needs changing over all of Government for sure and the quicker the better .

Different departments.

[yootalkin2me]

5 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Different departments.

Different Divisions you mean 

[Non-Believer]

11 minutes ago, yootalkin2me said:

Different Divisions you mean 

Or silo even 

[yootalkin2me]

7 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Or silo even 

I know that's the way it used to be but I'd like to think that things have progressed from that time.

[Numbnuts]

8 minutes ago, yootalkin2me said:

I know that's the way it used to be but I'd like to think that things have progressed from that time.

Apparently they haven't. Had it on good authority regarding the Prom works. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Numbnuts

[Non-Believer]

The prom is a laughing stock even within other areas of DOI, let alone the public. IL's involvement held as partly responsible in no uncertain fashion.

[Roger Mexico]

5 hours ago, Uhtred said:

The absence of timely and correctly focussed media analysis Roger is because the local media are (a) poor and (b) particularly superficial. That’s expressly true of IOM ‘Newspapers’ and largely true of the Douglas Head collective.

5 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

Don't forget (c) in respect of MR, ie on the Govt payroll.

To be fair the local media is undermanned (with the exception of the BBC, which continues to need three people to produce a story a day) and IOM Newspapers is in particular.  They don't really have the time to go out and chase stories and tend to be over-cautious, due to quite onerous libel laws..  And the London press (with the possible exception of the FT) isn't much better despite vastly greater resources, so it's not like they've got much in the way of role models.

Now that Manx Radio has decided that its public service remit doesn't include anything as vulgar as broadcast news, it may be that they do more online to fill their days, but it's still mostly the sort of pro forma stuff they have always produced.  And it tends to be infected with the sort of chumminess that you see in the interview with Baker.  But again we see the same sort of thing in the London media, so it's very much in line with what the modern journalist is expected to do.

And of course if they do try to some investigative reporting they may not get very far.  There was an odd little question from Edge in this week's Tynwald (Q 1): What the Cabinet Office Communications team policy is with respect to media outlets contacting MHKs directly?  To which Quayle replied:

Quote

The media makes the decision on who to contact in the first instance, and therefore no policy is held. [sic]

The Communications team supports Ministers and departmental Members with media enquiries to ensure consistency of service.

And that was it.  I can only assume some MHKs have been telling the media that they aren't allowed to talk to them and they have to contact the PR people instead.  Note that Quayle doesn't exactly answer the question, though it's difficult to tell if that's deliberate or just mangling what he was given. 

Presumably someone in the media asked Edge to get a public pronouncement that our democratic representatives were allowed to talk to the media without it being approved by the Propaganda Department of the Central Soviet.  Which even Quayle wouldn't be daft enough to contradict in public.

[WTF]

9 hours ago, MrPB said:

Broadway is now a joke with the changes. More dangerous than it was before. 

i told Neil Down this back on page 83/84 and they weren't having it.