The offence of misconduct in public office carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.

[Declan]

Another point is that the leaders are still the Baby Boom generation. There's never been a Gen X US President or UK PM, let alone Millennial.  So you can really blame political correctness or the fecklessness of youth. 

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Personally I would have no affiliation to a political party and would be a floating voter in the UK.  I see good and bad in most of the parties but I really cannot understand the Tory/Labour till I die brigade.  

 

It's understandable for a voter to take that approach, if they don't want to be personally involved. The thing is if you don't join a political party and argue from the inside for change - first in the party and then hopefully in the government. Nothing changes. Thatcher, Blair, Corbyn, the Tory Euroskepics have all been minority voices in their parties whose voices came to the fore. 

You only have to look at Tynwald to see how ineffectual "independents" are. 

[manxman1980]

33 minutes ago, Declan said:

It's understandable for a voter to take that approach, if they don't want to be personally involved. The thing is if you don't join a political party and argue from the inside for change - first in the party and then hopefully in the government. Nothing changes. Thatcher, Blair, Corbyn, the Tory Euroskepics have all been minority voices in their parties whose voices came to the fore. 

You only have to look at Tynwald to see how ineffectual "independents" are. 

My view would be that I would vote for the political party whose manifesto I agree with the most rather than voting for an independent.  When I say that the issue is the party political system and first past the post what I mean is that the FPTP system results in two major parties dominating and those with "minority" views being forced into tactical voting. 

There does seem to have been a change in attitudes recently with parties like UKIP , Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Greens all doing well but this is a result of people becoming disillusioned with the Tory & Labour Parties rather than a true shift in UK politics. 

[Declan]

4 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

My view would be that I would vote for the political party whose manifesto I agree with the most rather than voting for an independent.  When I say that the issue is the party political system and first past the post what I mean is that the FPTP system results in two major parties dominating and those with "minority" views being forced into tactical voting. 

There does seem to have been a change in attitudes recently with parties like UKIP , Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Greens all doing well but this is a result of people becoming disillusioned with the Tory & Labour Parties rather than a true shift in UK politics. 

That's perfectly reasonable. You do need people to be floating voters otherwise nothing can change but you also need people to join parties because they can act as brake on the politicians. 

I'm not sure that the last EU election is proof of anything. One way or another we'll get through Brexit and by the next election (assuming it isn't soon) people won't vote on Remainer / Leaver lines but on who puts the best case forward for the economy, nhs, education etc. 

[manxman1980]

23 minutes ago, Declan said:

I'm not sure that the last EU election is proof of anything. One way or another we'll get through Brexit and by the next election (assuming it isn't soon) people won't vote on Remainer / Leaver lines but on who puts the best case forward for the economy, nhs, education etc. 

I am also taking into account the local council elections but I acknowledge that they are still driven by Brexit.  

I cannot see another general election happening anytime soon.  The Tories know that they would be given a pasting and whilst Labour outwardly believe that they would make gains I think the reality would be that they would also lose votes (based on the fact I know a few life long Labour supporters who have either now chosen to vote for a different party or who are very close to doing so).  That means that there is no backing in Parliament for a general election.  

The Tory party leadership is intriguing.  There are no stand out candidates in my opinion and the leading candidates like Johnson (proven liar, adulterer and buffoon), Gove (Hypocrite) and Hunt (Unpopular with Teachers/NHS) are unappealing.  They also seem to be living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that the EU are going to re-open negotiations on May's deal unless there is a fundamental shift in the UK's redlines. 

[Freggyragh]

The lead contenders are still doubling down on their brexit nonsense, knowing that there are enough unicorn chasers in the party with considerable  emotional investment in the belief in a ‘great deal’. Some of the  contenders clearly know it’s a disaster for the country not to admit project fear was correct about the car industry and the prospects for trade, and the best they can hope for is a re-run of the May years, and the worst, actually leaving and consigning their party to extinction. 

[ecobob]

I don’t know who Tarzan is but I did once support my weight on my elbows for Jane. 

[P.K.]

17 hours ago, woolley said:

Hezza a man of principle? Jesus. That was all about Hezza's barely concealed ambition to become Tory leader and PM.

You can't possibly be a fan of Blair. Please say you are joking. Nobody is a fan of Blair.

I agree with your last paragraph to the extent of the paucity of leadership and total absence of statesmanship among the current crop, but I would extend that to politicians of all colours. Total dross, and it seems to get worse with each successive generation. I put it down to our education system with its politically correct discouragement of competition, "no winners, no losers - everyone has to be equal" ethos. How do you breed leaders out of that philosophy?

They ALL harbour delusions about being PM. You only have to look at the appalling bunch of greasers currently vying for the top job to know that!

Blair took on his critics in an open forum. Contrast that with the Thatcher creature who would not only choose the interviewer but she would choose the questions as well! Villify Blair all you like but cojones like that never go out of fashion.

[Barrie Stevens]

3 hours ago, ecobob said:

I don’t know who Tarzan is but I did once support my weight on my elbows for Jane. 

Me Tarzan you Jane!

[woolley]

15 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Before you blame "political correctness" and the education system perhaps take a look at the average age of our political "leaders".  

Then consider how many of them were privately educated. 

There are plenty of young leaders, but they are not attracted to politics in the traditional sense.  

The UK Party Political system is the issue along with the first past the post system.

Personally I would have no affiliation to a political party and would be a floating voter in the UK.  I see good and bad in most of the parties but I really cannot understand the Tory/Labour till I die brigade.  

 

Yes, you make some comments worthy of consideration, but it was the boomers who started all of the namby pamby liberal nonsense, so it isn't really surprising that we have such "leaders". Most cosseted generation in history, all things considered.

I accept completely the point about young leaders not being attracted to politics. There are much more profitable and stimulating things to do but this does beg the question of who is to lead the country. The first past the post system is deeply embedded in the national psyche. Call Me Dave had a referendum on PR when he was having his thing with Numpty Nick but there was no enthusiasm in the country.

[P.K.]

On 6/11/2019 at 8:21 AM, manxman1980 said:

Before you blame "political correctness" and the education system perhaps take a look at the average age of our political "leaders".  

Then consider how many of them were privately educated. 

There are plenty of young leaders, but they are not attracted to politics in the traditional sense.  

The UK Party Political system is the issue along with the first past the post system.

Personally I would have no affiliation to a political party and would be a floating voter in the UK.  I see good and bad in most of the parties but I really cannot understand the Tory/Labour till I die brigade.  

Believe it or not Thatcher probably polarised the UK more than brexit has!

Thatcher essentially didn't hide the fact that her central ethos was "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" hence those in the South East and the good tory shires did ok during her tenure. Why else do you think Boris has stated he will give tax cuts to those on £50k + and the rest, well, who cares? He knows as well as Thatcher did that never mind the state of the nation good tories always vote with their wallet. And a conservative government will keep that wallet regularly refilled.

Those in "the provinces" however saw their industries and communities have the life sucked out of them. It was all terribly cruel and in some instances unnecessary. But then "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" was the reason it happened the way it did. Those of us who lived through those times remember how absolutely awful it was for a lot of folks.

So if you want to understand the "Tory/Labour till I die brigade" you only have to look at the reaction to Thatcher's passing to realise that one of her legacies is undying hatred for what she stood for....

[RIchard Britten]

[manxman1980]

17 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Believe it or not Thatcher probably polarised the UK more than brexit has!

Thatcher essentially didn't hide the fact that her central ethos was "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" hence those in the South East and the good tory shires did ok during her tenure. Why else do you think Boris has stated he will give tax cuts to those on £50k + and the rest, well, who cares? He knows as well as Thatcher did that good tories always vote with their wallet. And a conservative government will keep that wallet regularly refilled.

Those in "the provinces" however saw their industries and communities have the life sucked out of them. It was all terribly cruel and in some instances unnecessary. But then "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" was the reason it happened the way it did. Those of us who lived through those times remember how absolutely awful it was for a lot of folks.

So if you want to understand the "Tory/Labour till I die brigade" you only have to look at the reaction of Thatcher's passing to realise that one of her legacies is undying hatred for what she stood for....

As you may have guessed I did grow up whilst Thatcher was in power but really most of that passed me by because of my age.  Really my vague interest in UK politics would have started with "Spitting Image" but it was still something that was happening over there as opposed to really effecting me.  I remember the Major Government and his struggles with the anti-EU members of the Tory party but my life was most impacted by the Blair years.  That was while I was at University in the UK and when I did vote in UK elections.

I suppose my experience in those years was not as polarising as the lifelong Tories or Labourites.  Then again perhaps I am just good at stepping back and weighing up the positives and negatives of each party.  If I was voting in the UK now I would be looking at the Greens or Lib Dems - I know some on here would be aghast at the prospect of either of those parties being in power but I think both would be better than the current Labour or Tory alternatives. 

[P.K.]

Just a wild stab in the dark but I would guess your age at 39 ish...?

I certainly wouldn't be aghast at anyone voting Lib-Dem. 

But you only have to see the massive piles of Daily Wails delivered to the island's newsagents every day to realise how very right wing the place is.

Which is reflected on here....