Choose Life - Scotland's drug problem

[woolley]

2 minutes ago, P.K. said:

True.

But the support services to enable them to do this come at a price.

A price the Rogers of this world (see what I did there?) are very clearly not prepared to pay.....

But there would also be big savings to the criminal justice system, the health system and all kinds of societal damage would be avoided which would also have a positive impact financially. It just needs a change of mindset and imaginative thinking rather than continuing the same old nonsensical policies while things get worse, and hoping for a different outcome. The definition of insanity, I do believe.

[P.K.]

52 minutes ago, woolley said:

But there would also be big savings to the criminal justice system, the health system and all kinds of societal damage would be avoided which would also have a positive impact financially. It just needs a change of mindset and imaginative thinking rather than continuing the same old nonsensical policies while things get worse, and hoping for a different outcome. The definition of insanity, I do believe.

Nice irony isn't it?

The drug deaths don't bother the Rogers at all. In fact there's an unmistakeable "the more the merrier" aattitude.

Which will probably only change when the Daily Wail reading Little Englanders have been thinned out a bit....

[Rog]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

True.

But the support services to enable them to do this come at a price.

A price the Rogers of this world (see what I did there?) are very clearly not prepared to pay.....

Absolutely right. Sod them.  Their hedonism got them into it let them sort themselves out one way or another.  I really mean this.

[TheTeapot]

There was a proposal the other day I barely read suggesting that the NHS should pay smokers to quit, and that in the long run this would save £billions. Similar situation here, a large initial cost to get treatment centers and help schemes up and running, offset by the improvement in health over a longer period of time. There is a lot more than just setting up a rehab center in Paisley and telling people they won't get nicked for a couple of bags of smack though.

One of the interesting points the Portuguese guy raised yesterday was one of stigma. People don't seek help in situations where being known as a drug addict is badly looked down upon. His argument that changing from a criminal problem to a health one has massively helped with that. I knew a guy hooked on the gear (unsurprisingly now dead) referred onto methadone who wouldn't go to the chemist to get it because he knew people were watching. He was an idiot mind, but I guess quite a lot of heroin addicts are.

[Freggyragh]

58 minutes ago, Rog said:

Absolutely right. Sod them.  Their hedonism got them into it let them sort themselves out one way or another.  I really mean this.

I think you’re wrong, as you usually are. I think the root cause of most drug addiction is misery. Hedonistic users tend to be more able to give up and move on. Users who use because they can’t cope with reality tend to give up one escape mechanism only to find another. I’m sure you’ve had more than your fair share of hard drugs given your medical history, and I’m sure you wouldn’t take them if your weren’t in pain. I’d guess that bad parenting, bad social situations, lack of confidence etc. are behind a lot of non-prescribed drug use, and it is of course a vicious circle, and the only possible ways out I can see are really strong policing and punishment or really well organised social interventions. At the moment, it’s a very mixed response. One thing we might agree on is that whilst recreational narcotics are illegal, politicians should be regularly tested and any who are found to have taken an illegal drug they have not tried to legalise should be banged up for the rest of their natural lives. 

[Rog]

12 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

I think you’re wrong, as you usually are. I think the root cause of most drug addiction is misery. Hedonistic users tend to be more able to give up and move on. Users who use because they can’t cope with reality tend to give up one escape mechanism only to find another. I’m sure you’ve had more than your fair share of hard drugs given your medical history, and I’m sure you wouldn’t take them if your weren’t in pain. I’d guess that bad parenting, bad social situations, lack of confidence etc. are behind a lot of non-prescribed drug use, and it is of course a vicious circle, and the only possible ways out I can see are really strong policing and punishment or really well organised social interventions. At the moment, it’s a very mixed response. One thing we might agree on is that whilst recreational narcotics are illegal, politicians should be regularly tested and any who are found to have taken an illegal drug they have not tried to legalise should be banged up for the rest of their natural lives. 

The way out of a miserable existence is to WORK out of it.  When it comes to pain relief I avoid any as much as I can which is mostly.  Generally IV ibuprofen is the strongest, Only twice morphine, and even then for only 24 hours post operative. After that I "manned up".

[the stinking enigma]

arbeit macht frei, so to speak

[woolley]

2 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

There was a proposal the other day I barely read suggesting that the NHS should pay smokers to quit, and that in the long run this would save £billions.

This is a slight deviation from the thread, but I've never believed that this financial argument against smoking stands scrutiny. Obviously the fewer smokers the better in general. From a narrow economic point of view, though, if people die young from cancer and heart disease due to smoking, they may take up some resource in treatment for a period prior to their death, but balancing that, they will not be around to cost money for pensions and healthcare during a long decline in old age, surely a far greater burden on the state. Granted, some who live longer will continue to contribute to GDP, many will not. It is certainly not all on the black side of the balance sheet.

Like much else that is received wisdom it appears to take an extremely short and simplistic view, very much as the current drugs law does.

[Bobbie Bobster]

'per capita'

[Rog]

11 hours ago, the stinking enigma said:

arbeit macht frei, so to speak

Well no arbeit macht  sponging slob. 

[ecobob]

I think the world and his wife get the jist of your opinions on this and other matters Rog. There’s really no need to repeat them in every single post - unless of course you’re only repeat posting them in order to be inflammatory. Surely not eh? And yes, I’m fully aware now that your modus operandi is now to repeat that it’s what you truly believe. We get it. Shut up. 

The Portuguese model works very well and has been a successful role model for most of Europe. But I would suggest the reason it has worked in Portugal is that funnily enough, the people it’s dealing with are Portuguese. The Portuguese are a laid back lot, melancholic in nature, as opposed to their lively Spanish neighbours, but, like the Spanish, they have a strong sense of inclusive community from cradle to grave. Their young people have a national pride and, generally, have high self esteem. They are more ‘conscious’ in their day to day lives and are more connected to nature and to spirit. Religion still plays a large part in the day to day life of all ages of the Portuguese people. 

The British Isles not so much. Our young people generally have a lack of connection to the real world, with community and they suffer from far more mental health issues and low self esteem than their Portuguese contemporaries.  It’s been said that trauma is ‘the gateway’ and many our young people for many reasons suffer from childhood and adolescent trauma and without the community support so prevalent in Southern European countries it is far more easy for them to self medicate with alcohol, weed, and other, more harmful drugs  

So it’s complicated. If the same model were to be introduced into the British Isles then I am not sure how it would turn out and it may have to get a lot worse before it gets better. 

The Netherlands now regrets its stance on decriminalisation and it trying to reign in some of their previous decisions, especially, where it involves tourists, most especially British and German tourists, they’re the ones that can’t behave themselves when faced with a sweetie shop full of drugs. They mix it with alcohol and end up costing the authorities in the Netherlands, mainly Amsterdam but other sea port areas too, far more money than they once saved. 

So yes, it’s complicated.