UK General Election Dec 2019

[mojomonkey]

5 minutes ago, quilp said:

Not if the brexit party won't stand. 

That's exactly the point. They are going to stand in target seats, it is just the seats that were won by the Conservatives in 2017 where they have said that they won't stand. The potential for them to split the vote with the Conservatives (thereby giving the victory to another party) remains in those target seats.

[doc.fixit]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

I’m not having a pop at either political side.

I have sympathy with Grenfell residents ( and others in similarly affected blocks) and Fire brigades.

I don’t have sympathy for Reed Mogg and his stupid insensitive comments, neither the first, nor the, in my opinion, bungled apology.

The design of the tower blocks was always that each unit and each floor was firesafe, ie could contain a fire in a flat or stop fire getting in, and if it spread could be contained to a single floor. Stay put meant the emergency services had unimpeded access via the stairwell to fire fight and evacuate and flames and smoke didn’t get into the stairwells. It’s not just UK standard practice but something developed world wide.

Fire Services used to check and issue fire certificates. Changed about 20 years ago. The new cladding would never have passed muster, and the Fire Service would have known its dangers. 
 

The changes to the building and fire regs led the way to Grenfell. But other factors then compounded it.

The block,  in common with many others, wasn’t adequately built, managed or maintained. This seems a peculiarly British thing. No, or limited, tenant input. Tenants viewed as a nuisance. Management outsourced, insufficient resources. Almost as if occupiers of social housing don’t count. This mounts up for years.

Then there are improvements, but every job is cut to the bone, costs pared. No attention is paid to risk - in the cladding, dry risers not maintained, cuts in the fabric that allow spread of smoke and flames.

The stay put policy is still standard, and appropriate, even after the enquiry part 1 report, for all multi storey buildings without the cladding danger.

Its only the minority of blocks with dangerous cladding. Which hopefully are now identified and known to the Emergency Services.

So, for JR-M, it may be counterintuitive, but the initial advice was correct, stay put, by moving you impede emergency services and put yourself and others at risk. That remains the case for non ( dangerously ) cladded buildings. So JR-M in his apology when he suggests it’s common sense post ipso facto, post part 1 report, is still wrong. You follow fire service advice.
 

This wouldn’t have happened if the original building had decent insulation. The cladding was a retrofit to remedy that. It wouldn’t have happened if proper fire resistant/retardant cladding had been used. Why wasn’t that used? I suspect cost was the driving factor.

I would have said to maximise profit, a bit more to the point than, 'cost'.

[quilp]

29 minutes ago, mojomonkey said:

That's exactly the point. They are going to stand in target seats, it is just the seats that were won by the Conservatives in 2017 where they have said that they won't stand. The potential for them to split the vote with the Conservatives (thereby giving the victory to another party) remains in those target seats.

 

[woody2]

3 hours ago, mojomonkey said:

sir nige is too chicken to stand in any seat himself but as I read it The Brexit Party are not standing in any of the 317 seats that the Conservatives won in 2017. Its open season on any other seats (i.e. target seats). The potential to split the vote still remains.

which is what i said......

3 hours ago, woody2 said:

sir nige is not standing anyone in tory seats........

[woody2]

2 hours ago, mojomonkey said:

That's exactly the point. They are going to stand in target seats, it is just the seats that were won by the Conservatives in 2017 where they have said that they won't stand. The potential for them to split the vote with the Conservatives (thereby giving the victory to another party) remains in those target seats.

lets see on friday (?)........

 

[mojomonkey]

21 minutes ago, woody2 said:

which is what i said......

I didn't say you didn't. I was actually agreeing with you and expanding on the news. Don't be so paranoid.

[P.K.]

5 hours ago, quilp said:

"Stirred up the usual suspects" this alone is a slur, you'll go to no end to cast aspersions will you? No faux outrage at your post though. It was an outrageous suggestion that the "right whingers" don't care about the plight of the Grenfell residents. And once again you're trying to wriggle out of it by distraction. Typical...

What a load of hysterical nonsense.

The right wing council who ran Grenfell were conspicuous by their absence. They also seem to have skimped somewhat on the fire doors that were sub-standard. They didn't install a sprinkler system, a cost of £200k on a refurb of £10m, because "Asked if installing sprinklers was considered as part of the refurbishment, Mr Paget-Brown said the advice was that the best way to combat the spread of a fire was to contain it. He told BBC2's Newsnight: "I didn't consider retrofitting sprinklers because we were told that what you try to do when you are refurbishing is to contain a fire within a particular flat so that the fire service can evacuate that flat, deal with the fire."

You're forever posting up tripe from a very right-wing site that wants the return of the death penalty n'est ce pas?

Only a complete idiot would think all right whingers don't care about what happened at Grenfell.

Hi Quilp!

[quilp]

Mad. You do the guardian I do Guido. As an example, that "tripe" you speak of, is factual. Matters not where the info comes from if something is fact. Even if it's in that rag you read, if it's a fact, that's it.

For what it's worth I support execution for certain crimes. 

[woolley]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

What a load of hysterical nonsense.

The right wing council who ran Grenfell were conspicuous by their absence. They also seem to have skimped somewhat on the fire doors that were sub-standard. They didn't install a sprinkler system, a cost of £200k on a refurb of £10m, because "Asked if installing sprinklers was considered as part of the refurbishment, Mr Paget-Brown said the advice was that the best way to combat the spread of a fire was to contain it. He told BBC2's Newsnight: "I didn't consider retrofitting sprinklers because we were told that what you try to do when you are refurbishing is to contain a fire within a particular flat so that the fire service can evacuate that flat, deal with the fire."

You're forever posting up tripe from a very right-wing site that wants the return of the death penalty n'est ce pas?

Only a complete idiot would think all right whingers don't care about what happened at Grenfell.

Hi Quilp!

There are flats all over the country built to similar standards in council areas run by all of the political parties. Stop using suffering to make political points. It's really sick as well as being wrongheaded. I illustrated the folly of this approach earlier by highlighting the lamentable response of the Labour run Doncaster Council to the flooding victims. Please desist. 

[P.K.]

12 minutes ago, woolley said:

There are flats all over the country built to similar standards in council areas run by all of the political parties. Stop using suffering to make political points. It's really sick as well as being wrongheaded. I illustrated the folly of this approach earlier by highlighting the lamentable response of the Labour run Doncaster Council to the flooding victims. Please desist. 

Why should I desist? The facts about the fire doors, no sprinklers, no sign of the "managers" after the disaster speak for themselves. And all this penny-pinching from an authority that was sitting on a £274m pile of cash! Inexcusable.

Sure there are lots of similar "social housing" with the same defects. And then we have this scandal:

Two years after Grenfell, why are thousands still not safe in their homes?

Despite government promises, most blocks with Grenfell-type cladding are untouched. The official indifference is shocking 

The towers lit up one by one on Wednesday night. In London, Newcastle and Manchester, the message was simple. “Two years after Grenfell and this building is still covered in dangerous cladding”, read one. “Two years after Grenfell and the fire doors in this building still aren’t fit for purpose”, said another.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/13/two-years-grenfell-government-blocks-cladding

Don't you just love a tory government....

[woolley]

22 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Don't you just love a tory government....

You advocate Corbyn for PM?

[P.K.]

7 minutes ago, woolley said:

You advocate Corbyn for PM?

 

On 11/7/2019 at 10:22 AM, P.K. said:

Corbyn suffers from the "Kinnochio" effect.

The government are a complete shambles but voters won't get rid of them because the opposition leader is simply not seen as PM material.

Amazing when you think the current PM is a totally amoral narcissistic inveterate liar and serial philanderer...

What do you think....?

[Freggyragh]

3 hours ago, quilp said:

For what it's worth I support execution for certain crimes. 

I often think I do too, and then I remember all the gullible folk who only pay attention to whatever accords with their narrow understanding of the world.

[P.K.]

Just now, Freggyragh said:

I often think I do too, and then I remember all the gullible folk who only pay attention to whatever accords with their narrow understanding of the world.

With the death penalty you only need to get it wrong the once and you lose all your moral authority for having it at all.

Add to that the fact that the law and judiciary are run by people and people have a predisposition to fuck up and it quickly becomes apparent that the death penalty is simply not an option....

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, P.K. said:

With the death penalty you only need to get it wrong the once and you lose all your moral authority for having it at all.

Add to that the fact that the law and judiciary are run by people and people have a predisposition to fuck up and it quickly becomes apparent that the death penalty is simply not an option....

Far less likely nowadays with the advance of genetic science. Think about all the innocents that would be alive today or would have avoided rape by "rehabilitated" repeat offenders.