UK General Election Dec 2019

[manxman1980]

28 minutes ago, Rog said:

Still waiting for the lies to be spelled out.

Start with the promise of 50,000 new nurses.  That in reality is a target to retain an existing 19,000 nurses and bring in 31,000 new nurses.  Why not just promise 31,000 new nurses?

If I promised you £50,000 but then said that actually £19,000 of that is already yours and I was only giving you £31,000 you might feel a little aggrieved that I had not been entirely truthful wouldn't you?

[quilp]

51 minutes ago, P.K. said:

A no deal crash out, a requirement of Johnson's £backers, would mean WTO tariffs of up to 40% on UK exports of goods and services. This will destroy their competitiveness and lead to real financial difficulties.

"... a requirement of Johnson's backers..." Who are they then? Can you name name's/businesses? Why is it a requirement to these "backers", what do they stand to gain from a no deal brexit..? Sounds like a rather mysterious claim.

Have you got a link to this "... up to a 40% increase on UK exports of goods and services." 

[Rog]

6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Surely that would be for a potentially independent Scotland and the EU to negotiate.  Do not forget at the last independence referendum that the UK Government told the population of Scotland that a vote to leave the UK would be a vote to leave the EU.  As the UK is now leaving that is happening anyway. 

Does it not occur to you that a majority of the population in Scotland may view the Government sitting in Westminster as being corrupt and undemocratic and that perhaps the population of Scotland would like the right to determine their own trading relationships, border controls, etc etc as a sovereign nation free from the control of Westminster?

Just because the United Kingdom has existed for longer that the EU does not mean that it is any better (or worse).  It is still a Union of three (and a bit) nations and whilst they broadly share the same values and beliefs there are also differences.

I do not understand how a Brexit supporter cannot understand why a Scottish Nationalist would want independence from the UK.  Am I missing something here?

You also continue to ignore the situation in Northern Ireland which seems to be a blind spot for many brexit supporters.  I feel that it is a case of out of sight, out of mind with Northern Ireland.  That is a far more complex problem to resolve than Scotland.

I couldn't care much less about Scotland or what the spoiled Scots do or don't want.

As for ULSTER my hope is that part of the UK will see the advantages of UK membership.

[Rog]

7 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Start with the promise of 50,000 new nurses.  That in reality is a target to retain an existing 19,000 nurses and bring in 31,000 new nurses.  Why not just promise 31,000 new nurses?

If I promised you £50,000 but then said that actually £19,000 of that is already yours and I was only giving you £31,000 you might feel a little aggrieved that I had not been entirely truthful wouldn't you?

But that was not and is not a lie.

The intent is to continue to recruit to a total of 50,000.

[P.K.]

47 minutes ago, Rog said:

Still waiting for the lies to be spelled 

What's the point when your mind is completely closed off to the facts?

Welcome to the Conservative party election campaign. I have been a political reporter for almost three decades and have never encountered a senior British politician who lies and fabricates so regularly, so shamelessly and so systematically as Boris Johnson. Or gets away with his deceit with such ease.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media

[wrighty]

27 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Start with the promise of 50,000 new nurses.  That in reality is a target to retain an existing 19,000 nurses and bring in 31,000 new nurses.  Why not just promise 31,000 new nurses?

If I promised you £50,000 but then said that actually £19,000 of that is already yours and I was only giving you £31,000 you might feel a little aggrieved that I had not been entirely truthful wouldn't you?

But if your bank account was losing money (negative interest or whatever) such that it'd be £19000 lighter in a few years and BoJo said that he'd stop that, and give you £31000 to top it up, wouldn't you be £50000 richer than you would have been without his intervention?

I don't think it's a particularly elegant way of saying things, and I don't even believe it's likely to happen, but this whole 50000 is actually 31000 - (-19000)  has been reasonably well explained, and is more of a way to get a nice round figure than misleading/lying.

[Rog]

5 minutes ago, P.K. said:

What's the point when your mind is completely closed off to the facts?

Welcome to the Conservative party election campaign. I have been a political reporter for almost three decades and have never encountered a senior British politician who lies and fabricates so regularly, so shamelessly and so systematically as Boris Johnson. Or gets away with his deceit with such ease.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media

Which?

[quilp]

@P.K. Never mind accusing other posters of having a "closed mind." You need to provide some links to your sweeping generalisms. And the usual guardian stuff just doesn't cut it. There's a cure for chronic Monbiotsis- remove your blinkers. Read other sources.

Demanding answers from other posters is your norm, how's about playing by your own rules?

[woolley]

38 minutes ago, quilp said:

@P.K. Never mind accusing other posters of having a "closed mind." You need to provide some links to your sweeping generalisms. And the usual guardian stuff just doesn't cut it. There's a cure for chronic Monbiotsis- remove your blinkers. Read other sources.

Demanding answers from other posters is your norm, how's about playing by your own rules?

Quite. He also didn't address my point about the new Tory MPs from the North and Midlands being just ordinary folk from those areas rather than the fascists and hard right fanatics that the left would have us believe. Local business people, a girl from a single parent family on a council estate, health workers etc. These people have seen it at the sharp end in deprived areas, but they are patriots. They don't want some know-it-all from the Islington set with a Labour badge telling them what's good for them. They've had enough, and to be called stupid over Brexit and ignored three times, I guess, was the final straw. Even now they don't get it, and I hear the remainers are now the rejoiners.

Then PK offers us yet more stuff from the Guardian, as always his myopic version of the truth.

[Declan]

Woolley. Stop defending PK by calling him left wing. Apart from on Brexit, he's as bad as you are. 

[P.K.]

Not only the referendum but this election really does expose a lot that's rotten in UK politics.

For example if you told Aaron Banks that the referendum was democratic he would laugh in your face.

As per the UK rabid right wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it, told the most appalling lies which were picked up and spread by tory politicians and MSM. Especially about Corbyn and I have to say I wish he had gone in the previous election, but he didn't.

Anyway as a test case a policy analyst took an outright lie, almost inevitably from the Wail, to IPSO.

The lie was that Labour were going to scrap the Capital Gains Tax exemption on main homes. Something guaranteed to strike fear into their xenophobic little englander readership.

This lie was duly taken up and was even spouted by totally amoral narcissistic serial philanderer and inveterate liar Boris Johnson our actual PM. He said "This mad 'tax on all your houses' would cripple every Brit who owns or wants to own their own home" but then lying is second nature to Johnson. The Sun claimed it was a "movers tax" etc etc and so forth.

There then followed a maelstrom of counter claims by the Wail Group to the policy analyst and IPSO including what would be a tiny clarification in a remote part of their "newspapers".

The analyst held out and IPSO eventually bowed to the inevitable. But they wouldn't take action until after the election!

Errrr why?

So the lie went all the way to the ballot box.....

 

[P.K.]

34 minutes ago, Declan said:

Woolley. Stop defending PK by calling him left wing. Apart from on Brexit, he's as bad as you are. 

I would say slightly left of centre.

I would never vote Labour because I think their holistic approach to social care will not only never solve the problems but will actually exacerbate them.

[Rog]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

Not only the referendum but this election really does expose a lot that's rotten in UK politics.

For example if you told Aaron Banks that the referendum was democratic he would laugh in your face.

As per the UK rabid right wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it, told the most appalling lies which were picked up and spread by tory politicians and MSM. Especially about Corbyn and I have to say I wish he had gone in the previous election, but he didn't.

Anyway as a test case a policy analyst took an outright lie, almost inevitably from the Wail, to IPSO.

The lie was that Labour were going to scrap the Capital Gains Tax exemption on main homes. Something guaranteed to strike fear into their xenophobic little englander readership.

This lie was duly taken up and was even spouted by totally amoral narcissistic serial philanderer and inveterate liar Boris Johnson our actual PM. He said "This mad 'tax on all your houses' would cripple every Brit who owns or wants to own their own home" but then lying is second nature to Johnson. The Sun claimed it was a "movers tax" etc etc and so forth.

There then followed a maelstrom of counter claims by the Wail Group to the policy analyst and IPSO including what would be a tiny clarification in a remote part of their "newspapers".

The analyst held out and IPSO eventually bowed to the inevitable. But they wouldn't take action until after the election!

Errrr why?

So the lie went all the way to the ballot box.....

 

There is the world of difference between what some people in the Conservative Party may or may not have said and what BoJo did

Thus far your accusations have focussed on him.

[manxman1980]

4 hours ago, Rog said:

I couldn't care much less about Scotland or what the spoiled Scots do or don't want.

As for ULSTER my hope is that part of the UK will see the advantages of UK membership.

I am sure the Scots would feel the same about you if they ever looked at Manxforums.

I think Northern Ireland is going to be a real thorn in the side of the UK Government when it comes to a brexit being delivered by the Conservative & Unionist Party.

[manxman1980]

4 hours ago, Rog said:

But that was not and is not a lie.

The intent is to continue to recruit to a total of 50,000.

No, it's not.  The plan is to retain 19,000 and recruit 31,000.  Retention of existing staff is very different to recruiting additional staff.

4 hours ago, wrighty said:

But if your bank account was losing money (negative interest or whatever) such that it'd be £19000 lighter in a few years and BoJo said that he'd stop that, and give you £31000 to top it up, wouldn't you be £50000 richer than you would have been without his intervention?

I don't think it's a particularly elegant way of saying things, and I don't even believe it's likely to happen, but this whole 50000 is actually 31000 - (-19000)  has been reasonably well explained, and is more of a way to get a nice round figure than misleading/lying.

We both know that retaining those 19,000 nurses that are expected to leave is going to be near impossible.  How many of those 19,000 are approaching retirement?  How many are planning due to the working conditions and pressure?  How many are planning to leave to return to their country of origin? If Johnson does not address the underlying reasons, and I see no evidence that he will, then that 19,000 figure is going to be near impossible.

I will concede that it is not a lie, the way it was presented was a mis-truth designed to grab headlines.